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Calvinism on the March


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You will find where Jesus(God the Son) received glory while on this earth. Because He was WORTHY. But what was Jesus seeking glory?
John 7:18

He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.



John 8:50And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.

Not sure how this relates to God seeking glory for Himself.
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I believe in predestination too. It's a corporate predestination based on being in Christ or not. You get in Christ you're predestinated for Heaven, you remain outside you are not. God doesn't choose who goes to Hell and who doesn't, that is contrary to His nature and the very clear teachings of Scripture. It's not until you start muddying around in stuff and start interpreting clear passages by unclear ones that you get a different result.

He said He's not willing that any should perish, it's that simple. The passages on predestination need to be interpreted in that light. If you do, you understand the idea of corporate predestination. Get in the plane, you're predestinated to land in DC; get in Christ, you're predestinated to go to Heaven.

Why is this so hard to get?


You cannot be predestined AFTER you are in Christ, that makes nonesense of the word. Why do you not just believe what scripture says and stop trying to get round it? The Bible says it, I believe it. That is good enough for me.
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Not sure how this relates to God seeking glory for Himself.


Who said "I seek not mine own glory"? God Himself; the Lord Jesus said that. Yet Jesus was in fact worshipped and glorified even while here on this earth because He was worthy of every bit of it. The false deity of Calvinist making is touted as being interested in "glory" at all costs. It twists the God of the Bible into a sadist who "predestined" some for the express purpose of suffering for a sick variety of "glory". It's not the glory of the God of the Bible. The reason it is dangerous is because it misrepresents the God of the Bible as someone He is not and even fundamental Baptist churches are accepting it.
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You cannot be predestined AFTER you are in Christ, that makes nonesense of the word. Why do you not just believe what scripture says and stop trying to get round it? The Bible says it, I believe it. That is good enough for me.


The problem is, it's not saying what you're saying it's saying, brother.

You absolutely can be predestinated at the moment you are in Christ, and that is the only way it works with the rest of Scripture. You're assuming the Bible says someone is predestinated to be saved - it never says that. In every instance they are predestinated to something that happens after they are saved. Such as getting a new body (hasn't happened yet), getting an eternal inheritance (hasn't happened yet), or going to Heaven (hasn't happened yet). You are RIGHT NOW predestinated for those things because you first trusted in Christ, but you were never predestinated to trust Christ in the first place.

Predestination is dependent upon being in Christ, and being in Christ is dependent upon trusting in Christ. Calvinists get the cart before the horse. It's very sad, because some of the greatest and most wonderful verses on the doctrine of eternal security have been twisted by Calvinists to mean nothing that they were ever inteneded to mean in the first place. Edited by Rick Schworer
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The problem is, it's not saying what you're saying it's saying, brother.

You absolutely can be predestinated at the moment you are in Christ, and that is the only way it works with the rest of Scripture. You're assuming the Bible says someone is predestinated to be saved - it never says that. In every instance they are predestinated to something that happens after they are saved. Such as getting a new body (hasn't happened yet), getting an eternal inheritance (hasn't happened yet), or going to Heaven (hasn't happened yet). You are RIGHT NOW predestinated for those things because you first trusted in Christ, but you were never predestinated to trust Christ in the first place.

Predestination is dependent upon being in Christ, and being in Christ is dependent upon trusting in Christ. Calvinists get the cart before the horse. It's very sad, because some of the greatest and most wonderful verses on the doctrine of eternal security have been twisted by Calvinists to mean nothing that they were ever inteneded to mean in the first place.


That is an interesting way of disbeliving the scriptures. The particular baptist teaching is not just on the word "predestination" but on the whole teaching of the bible, both Old and New Testaments.
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Who said "I seek not mine own glory"? God Himself; the Lord Jesus said that. Yet Jesus was in fact worshipped and glorified even while here on this earth because He was worthy of every bit of it. The false deity of Calvinist making is touted as being interested in "glory" at all costs. It twists the God of the Bible into a sadist who "predestined" some for the express purpose of suffering for a sick variety of "glory". It's not the glory of the God of the Bible. The reason it is dangerous is because it misrepresents the God of the Bible as someone He is not and even fundamental Baptist churches are accepting it.

I don't know that I've heard of what you seem to be trying to say.

In any event, the fact Jesus wasn't seeking glory while here in human form, while He was doing all for the glory of God, hardly negates the fact that Scripture is filled with examples of God doing or bringing about things for His glory. I really don't see what the problem with that is.
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You will find where Jesus(God the Son) received glory while on this earth. Because He was WORTHY. But what was Jesus seeking glory?
John 7:18

He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.



John 8:50And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.


Chapter 8


14Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go.

15Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.

16And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.

17It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.

18I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.

Claiming that Jesus wanted zero glory is absurd. Context.
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Question: Is anyone being helped by this?

Anyone helping to sharpen the brothers iron? so to speek?

Have any of you gone back to the Bible and done some indepth studies to reafferm what you say and belive? (I think all of you have from what I'm reading, but the questin has to be asked)

Is this keeping you from sharing your faith with others? Leading others to the Lord for salvation?

If all this is doing is gendering striff amoung the bretheren, stop now and go bowling or something. If on the other hand, you find this intellectually stimulating like I do, then cary on in brotherly love and provoke none to wrath.


Dr. Roberson

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He also died for non Calvinists.

He died for you as well as me.

I think a more productive thread would be what is the Gospel

Some say that preaching the gospel os expounding the whole scriptures from Gen. to Rev. Our preacher yesterday preached on 1 Cor. 15. which plainly says that the gospel is the death and resurrection of Christ. I am sorry to say that I learnt more in our scripture lessons at school than I would learn in any of our sermons recently.

I believe the gospel starts with God. God is holy and cannot abide sin. He is a God who we must approach with awe and reverence. The sinfullness of man. Ro 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; the death and resurrection of Christ. Ro 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. At school we told that you earnt death, but you could not earn eternal life, it was a gift of God.

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Well, your preacher was right. The gospel is the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. The Gospel goes all the way back to Jesus; "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

1 Corinthians2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

Galatians 6:14But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

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Well, your preacher was right. The gospel is the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. The Gospel goes all the way back to Jesus; "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

1 Corinthians2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

Galatians 6:14But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.


Yes I agree with you here.

A gospel preacher is one who will call sinners to repentance. Unfortunately today, few do.
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Yes I agree with you here.

A gospel preacher is one who will call sinners to repentance. Unfortunately today, few do.

Today it's more common for such to be "simplified" so it's all about saying some prayer with no real meaning so a God someone doesn't have much of a clue about will "love them as they are" and then whenever they die they can go to some place called heaven they've been told is wonderful.

Everything else is left out as unimportant.
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Question: Is anyone being helped by this?

Anyone helping to sharpen the brothers iron? so to speek?

Have any of you gone back to the Bible and done some indepth studies to reafferm what you say and belive? (I think all of you have from what I'm reading, but the questin has to be asked)

Is this keeping you from sharing your faith with others? Leading others to the Lord for salvation?

If all this is doing is gendering striff amoung the bretheren, stop now and go bowling or something. If on the other hand, you find this intellectually stimulating like I do, then cary on in brotherly love and provoke none to wrath.


Dr. Roberson

Generally speaking - & see the thread title - those who oppose Calvinism actually oppose their (mis)understanding of Reformed doctrine, & attempt to refute their own misunderstanding from prejudice as if the Reformed faith were opposed to Scripture & the Gospel.

Most Christians who have come to a Reformed understanding have done so through Bible study & ministry of respected preachers. We/they therefore have a better understanding of the doctrines than our opponents.

I hope that the result of discussions like this will be increased respect for those who hold Scriptural doctrines we do not agree with, so that threads like this will not lead to acrimonious argument.

Calvinists preach the Gospel of repentance & faith to lost, spiritually dead sinners, looking to God to change the heart of the sinner & bring about new birth. The Gospel of the crucified & risen Lord Jesus Christ is the means of salvation of the elect. If that is heresy, then I'm guilty as charged.
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Calvinists preach the Gospel of repentance & faith to lost, spiritually dead sinners, looking to God to change the heart of the sinner & bring about new birth. The Gospel of the crucified & risen Lord Jesus Christ is the means of salvation of the elect. If that is heresy, then I'm guilty as charged.


I thought you said the new birth happens before people trust Christ, Ian. In plainer words, faith doesn't come by hearing - it comes from God forcing it on someone. Paul asks, "How shall they hear without a preacher?" According to Calvinism, they CAN hear without a preacher because God just forces it on them.

How is this Scriptural again? Edited by Rick Schworer
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