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Calvinism on the March


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Yeah, the Calvinism vs hyper-Calvinism thing has been going on a long time. Not surprising considering those who don't believe in Calvinism at all tend to be separated on various aspects as well. Even some who don't go along with Calvinism yet agree with some aspects Calvin did. Some accept that as just the way it its while others go to extremes to drop anything Calvin may have agreed with to the point of tossing the baby out with the bathwater.

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John,
What is the difference between hyper Calvinist and Calvinist?

A Calvinist believes the Scriptures, & preaches the Gospel of repentance & faith in Christ, knowing that God uses the preaching of the Word to make Christ known & so to save sinners. He believes that the Holy Spirit makes Christ real to the sinner, & gives ew life & saving faith in Jesus. Man is responsible for his sins & his rejection of Christ, yet is unable in his fallen nature to truly repent & trust Christ as Lord & Saviour. Only by the effective work of the Holy Spirit can he be saved - by grace. That work is effective only in the elect, chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world.

OTOH a hypercalvinist believes that God will save all his elect apart from the Gospel, so that evangelism is not part of their operation.

Anticalvinists normally go beyond hypercalvinism by claiming Calvinists not only teach that only the elect can be saved, but that even if the non elect repent & seek salvation they cannot be saved. They develop a logic that goes beyond Scripture, whereas Calvinists are constrained by Scripture.
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Anticalvinists normally go beyond hypercalvinism by claiming Calvinists not only teach that only the elect can be saved, but that even if the non elect repent & seek salvation they cannot be saved. They develop a logic that goes beyond Scripture, whereas Calvinists are constrained by Scripture.


Consider me an "anticalvinist". But you will search in vain to find where I have ever said that or taught that. I teach that no man can come to Jesus without being drawn by God (John 6:44), But I also teach that God draws ALL men. (John 12:32) I underlined the words "draw" and "drawn" because Calvinists say this means "dragged". It does not. You can "draw" on a rope attached to a bucket in a well and if it isn't stuck, it's going to move up the well shaft. But you can tie that same rope to a tree and "pull" til you're blue in the face but that tree isn't going anywhere. "draw" or "pull" can also mean to "attract". Read on......
James 1:14But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

The particular lust that "draws" you may ATTRACT, TUG or PULL you, but it certainly doesn't physically "drag" you..
Any Calvinists that I remember debating with here teach that the "non- elect" aren't even "drawn" at all and that they don't even "seek salvation" because of their "total depravity". Edited by heartstrings
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Consider me an "anticalvinist". But you will search in vain to find where I have ever said that or taught that. I teach that no man can come to Jesus without being drawn by God (John 6:44), But I also teach that God draws ALL men. (John 12:32) I underlined the words "draw" and "drawn" because Calvinists say this means "dragged". It does not. You can "draw" on a rope attached to a bucket in a well and if it isn't stuck, it's going to move up the well shaft. But you can tie that same rope to a tree and "pull" til you're blue in the face but that tree isn't going anywhere. "draw" or "pull" can also mean to "attract". Read on......
James 1:14But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

The particular lust that "draws" you may ATTRACT, TUG or PULL you, but it certainly doesn't physically "drag" you..
Any Calvinists that I remember debating with here teach that the "non- elect" aren't even "drawn" at all and that they don't even "seek salvation" because of their "total depravity".

I know a couple Calvinists have pointed to Spurgeon who preached/taught that there was a specific call on a few and a general call on all. Spurgeon argued against those calling themselves Calvinists who held to a form of hyper-Calvinism.
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I teach that no man can come to Jesus without being drawn by God (John 6:44), But I also teach that God draws ALL men. (John 12:32)

What is the scope of "ALL?" Greeks wanted to see Jesus, & he explains that after his crucifixion he will draw all men. He clearly means Gentiles as well as Jews.

John 12:20And there were certain Greeks among them that came up to worship at the feast:
21The same came therefore to Philip, which was of Bethsaida of Galilee, and desired him, saying, Sir, we would see Jesus.
22Philip cometh and telleth Andrew: and again Andrew and Philip tell Jesus.
23And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.
24Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
.....
31Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

God uses the Gospel to draw sinners to Christ, all those who hear the Gospel are "called" but only the elect are truly "drawn".

"World" similarly is defined by context, e.g. 19The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold, the world is gone after him. "The world" in context means a large number of Jews.

We are told John 3:16For God so loved the world, .... & 1 John 2:15Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. Edited by Covenanter
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God uses the Gospel to draw sinners to Christ, all those who hear the Gospel are "called" but only the elect are truly "drawn".
I see..... if Mama CALLS "Supper's ready...come and get it!" you will hear it but are incapable of responding, but if you happen to be fortunate enough to catch the aroma of fried chicken, cornbread and turnip greens wafting on the breeze, then you are DRAWN? (Bad analogy.....I guess only connoisseurs of Southern cuisine would be drawn in this case) ;)



What is the scope of "ALL?"
Maybe something like this?

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Try to find Scripture reasoning - you are immediately providing silly logic. You must be constrained by Scripture.


Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Romans 3:23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

All have sinned....He's drawing all men...all means all. What's so hard about that?


Word Origin & History
all
O.E. eall "all, every, entire," from P.Gmc. *alnaz (cf. O.Fris., O.H.G. al, O.N. allr, Goth. alls),
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Just a quick comment on the original post. I haven't read any of the other posts, so I might be repeating something someone else has said. The info about BJU in particular caught my eye, because that's my alma mater. I thought I should mention that BJU affixes a slip of paper to the front pages of all of the books they sell in the bookstore, a disclaimer which indicates that the opinions of the authors are not necessarily in agreement with the views of the school. If I remember right, there's more verbage on that paper which talks about how we can learn good things from those with whom we disagree on some issues. Also, just to set the record straight, BJU actually dismissed a faculty member a few years back because he was too Reformed.

From my perspective, Calvinism/Reformed theology is a current trend...the result of the pendulum swinging back from the extreme practices of Arminianism which characterized many churches in previous but fairly recent years. It's human nature to react against the weaknesses of the thoughts and practices of previous generations. And so, back and forth we go...

The reasonable person, IMO, understands that neither Calvinism nor Arminianism--nor any man-made theological construct, for that matter--adequately and fully expresses the deep truths of God's work of salvation...truths that we cannot grasp, but that we must believe. From God's perspective, there's no tension between 'whosoever will' and 'predestination.' It's a paradox to us, because our minds are finite. The Calvinism/Arminianism debate will never be settled this side of heaven. But that doesn't stop people from shouting past each other...

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