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2 Chronicles 7:14


Dr. Roberson
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Ananias and Spphira in Acts 5 lied to the holy spirit. Simon in Acts 8 thought he could buy the gift of God. Demas left Paul because he loved the world more than the truth in 2 Tim 4:10. I could list more but these three should be enough.

What about Romans 6? It says that the old man is crucified and we become a new creature; it DOES NOT say that we become a perfect person and thus do not ever choose to do something which is evil.

It's clear that Ananias, Sapphira & Simon were not true born-again Christians. Scripture records their condemnation. I am not talking about stumbling in our walk with our Saviour. If one practises evil, as these did, they are lost - never saved, despite their profession. Read Rom. 6 again.

1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

3But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

9Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.

20But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
21Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.
22Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
23For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.

Add the papacy, JWs, etc, & the megachurch leaders to your list of evil doers who believe in Jesus. What will Jesus say?

21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
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It's clear that Ananias, Sapphira & Simon were not true born-again Christians. Scripture records their condemnation. I am not talking about stumbling in our walk with our Saviour. If one practises evil, as these did, they are lost - never saved, despite their profession. Read Rom. 6 again.

1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

3But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

9Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.

20But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
21Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.
22Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
23For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.

Add the papacy, JWs, etc, & the megachurch leaders to your list of evil doers who believe in Jesus. What will Jesus say?

21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:



In no way is it clear that they were not Christians. Just the opposite, it is quite clear that they were Christians. In the case of Ananias and Sapphira, go back to Acts 4:31 and read all of this in context. Continue to read in chapter 5. They were part of the church. They were Christians. In relation to Simon, it is even more clear that he was a Christian. Begin in Acts 8:12. Notice that Simon did exactly what the others did. It says they believed and were baptized. It says that he believed and was baptized. Clearly if he was not truly saved then none of the others were either.

I have read Romans 6 countless times. It does not say what you are attempting to make it say.

If you desire to ignore clear examples in order to justify your own view, then I see no reason to continue our conversation on this subject. As I have stated on previous discussions, I see no reason to argue just to be argueing.
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  • Lady Administrators

Saved people are still sinners - saved by grace. The flesh is still capable of sin. Paul said it well in Romans 7




For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that [it is] good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
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If II Chronicles 7:14 can be applied to a Christians life (to which I concur) then so can this promise IMO.

Hosea 4:6-

My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

Edited by Wilchbla
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If II Chronicles 7:14 can be applied to a Christians life (to which I concur) then so can this promise IMO.

Hosea 4:6-

My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

2 Cor. 1:18But as God is true, our word toward you was not yea and nay.
19For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in him was yea.
20For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

As Christian believers, all the promises are ours in Christ.

There is a significant difference between OC Israel & NC Israel+the church. The natural descendants of Abraham comprised Israel, as a nation, regardless of faith. Physical circumcision was the OC sign, but heart circumcision marked the true, believing Israel. Deu. 30:6And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. The NC Church/Israel comprises only true believers, baptised by the Holy Spirit into Christ. 1 Cr. 12:12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Therefore the warnings against rebellious OC Israel to not apply to NC Israel/Church. There are, of course many professing Christians, baptised into the churches who are not true believers & are living a lie.
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  • IFB

has anyone considered Galations 3?

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Actually, most of the entire chapter tells us that we are God's people through Christ.
If someone chooses to reject the promise of God, they reject Him. I would prefer to be called "The people of God" instead of rejecting the thought.

Edited by irishman
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  • Advanced Member

has anyone considered Galations 3?

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Actually, most of the entire chapter tells us that we are God's people through Christ.
If someone chooses to reject the promise of God, they reject Him. I would prefer to be called "The people of God" instead of rejecting the thought.

Yes. John, Jesus, Stephen & Paul carefully explained that Jews who rejected their Messiah were not children of Abraham.

Mat. 3:9And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father:

John 8:39They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
40But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
41Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
42Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44Ye are of your father the devil,

Acts 7:51Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

Phil. 3:2Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.
3For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

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  • IFB

Those of us who are saved are children of Abraham and we are God's people.
The way I interpret it is; If just God's people would heed 2 Chronicles 7:14; not the rest of America, just the blood-bought believers, God would heal the land. The verse wasn't written to lost people in Israel or America or in any other nation. It was written to the believers: God said "my people"

Edited by heartstrings
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Therefore the warnings against rebellious OC Israel to not apply to NC Israel/Church. There are, of course many professing Christians, baptised into the churches who are not true believers & are living a lie.


LOL. I love the spin. Now, you know that Romans 6:23 is actually speaking to a believer as well as I Corinthians 10:10? Or are they just speaking to disobedient Jews within the church since you seem to have a hard time with Jews.

I love how we get to claim the positive promises of God yet we escape the negative ones. There just for disobedient Jews. Wow. Just wow. Edited by Wilchbla
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LOL. I love the spin. Now, you know that Romans 6:23 is actually speaking to a believer as well as I Corinthians 10:10? Or are they just speaking to disobedient Jews within the church since you seem to have a hard time with Jews.

Have you noticed that v. 22 goes before v.23 ?
Rom 6:22But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

I love how we get to claim the positive promises of God yet we escape the negative ones. There just for disobedient Jews. Wow. Just wow.
That is the wonder of the Gospel. Wow indeed! Or rather Rom. 8:1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

11:33O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
35Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
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  • IFB

Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy. 1 Pet. 2:10

We are now the "people of God" no matter how others try to deny it.
Why do you not want to be God's people?

Edited by irishman
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Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy. 1 Pet. 2:10

We are now the "people of God" no matter how others try to deny it.
Why do you not want to be God's people?

Well said Irishman.

It seems some on this forum insist that Christians are free to practise evil if they want to, without losing their salvation. (If they've once made a decision, or said the prayer.) Of course we are not perfect, but if we commit evil, what sort of salvation have we? What are we saved from? The teaching that we are free to continue in sin is itself evil - a very dangerous lie.
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Well said Irishman.

It seems some on this forum insist that Christians are free to practise evil if they want to, without losing their salvation. (If they've once made a decision, or said the prayer.) Of course we are not perfect, but if we commit evil, what sort of salvation have we? What are we saved from? The teaching that we are free to continue in sin is itself evil - a very dangerous lie.


What I see people on this thread saying is that it is possible for people to sin and yet be Christians. I did not and do not see anyone saying Christians are "free to continue in sin". "Freedom" to sin and the ability to do so are two entirely different matters. We have the "ability" to sin as Christians because we still posses the sin nature, we do not have the "freedom" to sin though because the Christian is bought of God with the price of Christs blood and we are not our own. A person who has been genuinely saved can't loose their salvation due to their sin for the same reason. They are not their own. Salvation isn't theirs to loose. Having once trusted Christ and having been born of the Spirit the eternal security of the believer is based on the work and faithfulness of Christ, not the merit of the individual. If a Christian persists is sin he/she risks the chastening/judgment of God, but there is not a chance of God "kicking them out" of his family. The gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

"1st John 2:1-6 My little children, these things write I unto you,that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily isthe love of God perfected: hereby know we thatwe are in him. He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked."

"2nd Timothy 2:11-13 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself."
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S-D, I are not suggesting that a born-again believer can lose his salvation, nor that he cannot & will not sin. I am suggesting that a born-again believer will not commit the gross sins - evil & wickedness - that characterise the unbeliever.

I reject the claims that Ananias, Sapphira & Simon were true believers, despite their gross sins & condemnation by Peter.

Edited by Covenanter
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S-D, I are not suggesting that a born-again believer can lose his salvation, nor that he cannot & will not sin. I am suggesting that a born-again believer will not commit the gross sins - evil & wickedness - that characterise the unbeliever.

I reject the claims that Ananias, Sapphira & Simon were true believers, despite their gross sins & condemnation by Peter.
I Corinthians 5:1-5
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S-D, I are not suggesting that a born-again believer can lose his salvation, nor that he cannot & will not sin. I am suggesting that a born-again believer will not commit the gross sins - evil & wickedness - that characterise the unbeliever.

I reject the claims that Ananias, Sapphira & Simon were true believers, despite their gross sins & condemnation by Peter.


Define what you mean by "gross sin". The sin of Ananias and Sapphira was basically the sin of lying to make themselves look "better" than they actually were. The sin of Simon was a covetousness wrong hearted desire for spiritual power for the purpose of monetary gain. Now those are bad things, but I dare say many/most Christians have had the wrong motives and ended up doing something on the same general level at one time or another.

Beside OT examples like David who fell into things as bad as adultery and murder and yet were believers there are numerous references to NT Christians doing some seriously immoral things. It doesn't mean they were not saved. Now although there is no way we can know for sure if someone is continually in sin and has a rather carefree attitude about it that may well be a indication that they are not truly saved since the Lord chastens his children. Christians can get into just about any sin the lost can get into if they do not abide in the vine though. The sort of things Paul and the Corinthian church had to deal with is a prime example.


"1st Corinthians 5:1-8 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should havehis father's wife. And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. For I verily, as absent in body, but present inspirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye maybe a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth."

And then what Paul says later after the situation has been dealt with:

"2nd Corinthians 2:1-11 But I determined this with myself, that I would not come again to you in heaviness. For if I make you sorry, who is he then that maketh me glad, but the same which is made sorry by me? And I wrote this same unto you, lest, when I came, I should have sorrow from them of whom I ought to rejoice; having confidence in you all, that my joy is the joy of you all. For out of much affliction and anguish of heart I wrote unto you with many tears; not that ye should be grieved, but that ye might know the love which I have more abundantly unto you. But if any have caused grief, he hath not grieved me, but in part: that I may not overcharge you all. Sufficient to such a man is this punishment, which was inflicted of many. So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow. Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm your love toward him. For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether ye be obedient in all things. To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ; Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices."


Now it is pretty obvious that this person was saved when the sin was committed both because Paul initially talks about the persons "spirit being saved in the day of the Lord Jesus" and because of the fact that he was forgiven for his sin after his repentance with no indication that he had just "got saved" or needed to be saved.
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It's wonderful that that man was restored. Likewise David was brought to repentance, & was restored.

Regarding Ananias & Sapphira:
3But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

9Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.

That reads like a final condemnation for blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, not a warning to repent.

And Simon was told he was unregenerate: thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity. He was told to repent, & Scripture does not record any repentance. He wanted to buy spiritual power for his own name & fame, not to honour Jesus.

20But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. 21Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.
22Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
23For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.

Read on in 1 Cor. 5:9I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: 10Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
11But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

The immediate judgement was that he was a sinner who needed to repent, according to the OP. He did & was restored. PTL. Wicked "Christians" have to be excluded from acceptance in the church. The church itself would need to repent in that situation, if the did not exclude such sinners from membership.

Edited by Covenanter
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2 Cor. 1:18But as God is true, our word toward you was not yea and nay.
19For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in him was yea.
20For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

As Christian believers, all the promises are ours in Christ.

There is a significant difference between OC Israel & NC Israel+the church. The natural descendants of Abraham comprised Israel, as a nation, regardless of faith. Physical circumcision was the OC sign, but heart circumcision marked the true, believing Israel. Deu. 30:6And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. The NC Church/Israel comprises only true believers, baptised by the Holy Spirit into Christ. 1 Cr. 12:12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Therefore the warnings against rebellious OC Israel to not apply to NC Israel/Church. There are, of course many professing Christians, baptised into the churches who are not true believers & are living a lie.


They are not baptized into anything; they simply got wet.
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Well said Irishman.

It seems some on this forum insist that Christians are free to practise evil if they want to, without losing their salvation. (If they've once made a decision, or said the prayer.) Of course we are not perfect, but if we commit evil, what sort of salvation have we? What are we saved from? The teaching that we are free to continue in sin is itself evil - a very dangerous lie.


I hope you are not speaking of me. I did not say that we are free to committ evil without punishment. I simply said that a Christian can committ evil. He must repent when he does so.
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