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2 Chronicles 7:14


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Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy. 1 Pet. 2:10

We are now the "people of God" no matter how others try to deny it.
Why do you not want to be God's people?

Edited by irishman
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Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy. 1 Pet. 2:10

We are now the "people of God" no matter how others try to deny it.
Why do you not want to be God's people?

Well said Irishman.

It seems some on this forum insist that Christians are free to practise evil if they want to, without losing their salvation. (If they've once made a decision, or said the prayer.) Of course we are not perfect, but if we commit evil, what sort of salvation have we? What are we saved from? The teaching that we are free to continue in sin is itself evil - a very dangerous lie.
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Well said Irishman.

It seems some on this forum insist that Christians are free to practise evil if they want to, without losing their salvation. (If they've once made a decision, or said the prayer.) Of course we are not perfect, but if we commit evil, what sort of salvation have we? What are we saved from? The teaching that we are free to continue in sin is itself evil - a very dangerous lie.


What I see people on this thread saying is that it is possible for people to sin and yet be Christians. I did not and do not see anyone saying Christians are "free to continue in sin". "Freedom" to sin and the ability to do so are two entirely different matters. We have the "ability" to sin as Christians because we still posses the sin nature, we do not have the "freedom" to sin though because the Christian is bought of God with the price of Christs blood and we are not our own. A person who has been genuinely saved can't loose their salvation due to their sin for the same reason. They are not their own. Salvation isn't theirs to loose. Having once trusted Christ and having been born of the Spirit the eternal security of the believer is based on the work and faithfulness of Christ, not the merit of the individual. If a Christian persists is sin he/she risks the chastening/judgment of God, but there is not a chance of God "kicking them out" of his family. The gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

"1st John 2:1-6 My little children, these things write I unto you,that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily isthe love of God perfected: hereby know we thatwe are in him. He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked."

"2nd Timothy 2:11-13 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself."
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S-D, I are not suggesting that a born-again believer can lose his salvation, nor that he cannot & will not sin. I am suggesting that a born-again believer will not commit the gross sins - evil & wickedness - that characterise the unbeliever.

I reject the claims that Ananias, Sapphira & Simon were true believers, despite their gross sins & condemnation by Peter.

Edited by Covenanter
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S-D, I are not suggesting that a born-again believer can lose his salvation, nor that he cannot & will not sin. I am suggesting that a born-again believer will not commit the gross sins - evil & wickedness - that characterise the unbeliever.

I reject the claims that Ananias, Sapphira & Simon were true believers, despite their gross sins & condemnation by Peter.
I Corinthians 5:1-5
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S-D, I are not suggesting that a born-again believer can lose his salvation, nor that he cannot & will not sin. I am suggesting that a born-again believer will not commit the gross sins - evil & wickedness - that characterise the unbeliever.

I reject the claims that Ananias, Sapphira & Simon were true believers, despite their gross sins & condemnation by Peter.


Define what you mean by "gross sin". The sin of Ananias and Sapphira was basically the sin of lying to make themselves look "better" than they actually were. The sin of Simon was a covetousness wrong hearted desire for spiritual power for the purpose of monetary gain. Now those are bad things, but I dare say many/most Christians have had the wrong motives and ended up doing something on the same general level at one time or another.

Beside OT examples like David who fell into things as bad as adultery and murder and yet were believers there are numerous references to NT Christians doing some seriously immoral things. It doesn't mean they were not saved. Now although there is no way we can know for sure if someone is continually in sin and has a rather carefree attitude about it that may well be a indication that they are not truly saved since the Lord chastens his children. Christians can get into just about any sin the lost can get into if they do not abide in the vine though. The sort of things Paul and the Corinthian church had to deal with is a prime example.


"1st Corinthians 5:1-8 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should havehis father's wife. And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. For I verily, as absent in body, but present inspirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye maybe a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth."

And then what Paul says later after the situation has been dealt with:

"2nd Corinthians 2:1-11 But I determined this with myself, that I would not come again to you in heaviness. For if I make you sorry, who is he then that maketh me glad, but the same which is made sorry by me? And I wrote this same unto you, lest, when I came, I should have sorrow from them of whom I ought to rejoice; having confidence in you all, that my joy is the joy of you all. For out of much affliction and anguish of heart I wrote unto you with many tears; not that ye should be grieved, but that ye might know the love which I have more abundantly unto you. But if any have caused grief, he hath not grieved me, but in part: that I may not overcharge you all. Sufficient to such a man is this punishment, which was inflicted of many. So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow. Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm your love toward him. For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether ye be obedient in all things. To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ; Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices."


Now it is pretty obvious that this person was saved when the sin was committed both because Paul initially talks about the persons "spirit being saved in the day of the Lord Jesus" and because of the fact that he was forgiven for his sin after his repentance with no indication that he had just "got saved" or needed to be saved.
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It's wonderful that that man was restored. Likewise David was brought to repentance, & was restored.

Regarding Ananias & Sapphira:
3But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

9Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.

That reads like a final condemnation for blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, not a warning to repent.

And Simon was told he was unregenerate: thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity. He was told to repent, & Scripture does not record any repentance. He wanted to buy spiritual power for his own name & fame, not to honour Jesus.

20But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. 21Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.
22Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
23For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.

Read on in 1 Cor. 5:9I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: 10Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
11But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

The immediate judgement was that he was a sinner who needed to repent, according to the OP. He did & was restored. PTL. Wicked "Christians" have to be excluded from acceptance in the church. The church itself would need to repent in that situation, if the did not exclude such sinners from membership.

Edited by Covenanter
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2 Cor. 1:18But as God is true, our word toward you was not yea and nay.
19For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in him was yea.
20For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

As Christian believers, all the promises are ours in Christ.

There is a significant difference between OC Israel & NC Israel+the church. The natural descendants of Abraham comprised Israel, as a nation, regardless of faith. Physical circumcision was the OC sign, but heart circumcision marked the true, believing Israel. Deu. 30:6And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. The NC Church/Israel comprises only true believers, baptised by the Holy Spirit into Christ. 1 Cr. 12:12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Therefore the warnings against rebellious OC Israel to not apply to NC Israel/Church. There are, of course many professing Christians, baptised into the churches who are not true believers & are living a lie.


They are not baptized into anything; they simply got wet.
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Well said Irishman.

It seems some on this forum insist that Christians are free to practise evil if they want to, without losing their salvation. (If they've once made a decision, or said the prayer.) Of course we are not perfect, but if we commit evil, what sort of salvation have we? What are we saved from? The teaching that we are free to continue in sin is itself evil - a very dangerous lie.


I hope you are not speaking of me. I did not say that we are free to committ evil without punishment. I simply said that a Christian can committ evil. He must repent when he does so.
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