Discussion Topic - Women in Sports?

[farouk]

I, too, think Annie's posts are excellent, but I can't seem to express myself in a careful, moderate tone, without being shot down, so this is why I've bowed out of some threads. Blessings.

[Miss Linda]

< . . . snip . . . > If twisting up one's face and gritting one's teeth in pain is characteristic of masculine behavior only, then men should be the ones carrying and delivering all the wee ones, not women. Pain and strenuous physical labor are not unique to the sporting arenas, or to the man's domain; they can be found in the laundry room, as heavy baskets of wet clothing are hoisted and carried. < . . . snip . . . > They can be found wherever there is work to be done...maybe even on Miss Linda's treadmill. These grimaces aren't limited to the soccer field or the basketball court, but are part of the fabric of life, as common reactions to the work that we all do.

Well, I must confess I do grimace on my treadmill at times, Sister Annie! And I'm embarrassed to admit I also perspire a bit on there too! That's actually why I prefer to exercise at home, in private, so I can grimace and perspire (and huff and puff -- lots of huffing and puffing I'm afraid ) without anyone seeing me! I would be too embarrassed to do that in public! Apparently it's too much of a spectacle for even the cats to witness because they usually slink into the other room when I get on the treadmill.

(Good for you, by the way, for getting in shape with your husband. There was a time when I could eat anything I wanted, but I'd lose five pounds if I skipped lunch. Boy oh boy are THOSE days over!! Now I really have to work for every pound I want to lose!) Edited August 9, 2011 by Miss Linda

[Annie]

Women, girls in sports was virtually non-existent until the twentieth century (and, even then, hardly until the middle of that time period). Why? What, were men evil, sexist chauvinists? Do we twenty-first century Christians know better than them? Why, of course we do! For we are enlightened now, we don't do such evil things anymore. But, who is right?

Good question, Joel. Take a look at this link, and see that women's participation in sports goes a lot farther back than you have asserted. http://www.northnet....uw/timeline.htm

Before the Industrial Revolution initiated the mass production of goods which created an unprecedented amount of leisure time, the vast majority of people, male and female, did not have time to develop skill in sports; they were too busy surviving. Only the wealthy had the luxury of participating in sports, and it's interesting that both men and women participated in the sports which were available at the time. Also interesting is that there were really no organized programs or venues for even men to participate in strenuous/competitive sports until the late 1800's when the first modern Olympics were held...and then it was just a few men who happened to be in the right place at the right time. "Sports" just weren't a big deal to the common person, man or woman, until the 20th century, for these reasons, and more...

Sports like basketball and soccer and the modern concept of football (IOW, the kinds of sports we're talking about on this thread) weren't even developed until the late 1800's, and they took a long time to become popular. And, even then, most people didn't have the time or venue or equipment to participate in these sports until well into the twentieth century. People couldn't just go down to the local "sporting goods store" and buy basketball goals or footballs. There were really very few organized sports programs...just professional teams. YMCA's and YWCA's with gyms eventually became accessible to the general public...Public schools (which, again, weren't even established until the late 1800's, and certainly weren't utilized by the general public until the early 20th century) gradually began to catch on to the recently-invented sports of basketball, soccer, etc., and to use them in organized ways as part of their programs. As technology advanced, we were eventually able to watch teams compete in our living rooms, and to understand different games. Towns and cities began offering "sports programs" for kids and adults as the population began to be more familiarized with sports, and as studies showed the benefit (and fun!) involved. All of this happened gradually.

So, comparing modern times (when sports equipment is mass produced, and sports have been popularized, and the basic rules of most sports are commonly known, and the general population has access to fields and courts built specifically for certain sports) to "the olden days" really doesn't help your point at all. The sports we're talking about didn't even exist "back then." And women did indeed participate in the sports which were common in wealthy families in earlier centuries: golf, ballooning, croquet, etc.

More later... :D Edited August 9, 2011 by Annie

[HappyChristian]

I love to play croquet. We dont' get to too often anymore, unless we get together with people...there are only two of us. Croquet is more fun with more people, IMO.

[Annie]

Everything ought to be measured in this way: "Does this please God?" If we think so, why? If we don't think so, why? For Scripture is to be the authority in all things - God's will defeats all. Yet, we see God's work, His will even in creation. Look all the way back in Genesis, when man and woman were first created. God created Adam outside of the Garden, then put him in, but when Eve was made, she was inside of the Garden - a safe place. Adam had to suffer for her to come into being. Adam was commanded to work, before and after the Fall; was Eve? Was Eve commanded to eat by the sweat of her brow? No! Her curse involved child-bearing, the home; her place (Titus 2:4-5).

Agree completely (except for the "Adam suffering for her to come into being" part...there was no suffering or pain before the Fall). There's nothing in this paragraph which would prohibit women from being involved in organized games. "Playing games" does not fall under the category of either "breadwinning" or "homemaking." Sports and recreation are leisure activities. If Scripture says or implies that the only thing women are to be doing is homemaking, then they are certainly prohibited from any leisure activities, including sports. Likewise, if Scripture says that the only thing men are supposed to be doing is working/winning bread, then they are certainly prohibited from all leisure activities, including sports games. The thing is, the Bible doesn't say this at all, for either gender. The Creation account has nothing to do with leisure time at all, and it doesn't speak to the issue of how leisure time should be used. Yes, the woman's main employment (especially if she has a husband and children) is to be the keeper of her home. Any other jobs she might have take second place to this most important one. But when the day's work is done... The same goes for daughters, who are learning to follow in their mothers' footsteps. Edited August 9, 2011 by Annie

[Annie]

Women were once treated with respect. Chivalry - it inspires a man to treat woman like the precious jewel she is (and, even if she doesn't act godly, feminine, or ladylike in anyway, she ought to be treated like the most godly, feminine, beautiful, ladylike princess ever to walk this planet!); it is a wonderful thing. Why did men used to open doors for women, stand up when they entered a room, came to the table, left the table - et cetera? I heard of one man centuries ago who died of hypothermia or something of the like because he refused to wear a hat in a woman's presence. Respect to the death!

Women and girls do not realize how wonderful they were created to be - how beautiful it is to be a godly, feminine lady. Today, this is shunned, in our liberalated society. Why do women want to lower themselves and be men's equals? Because satan has a hold on this country and on this world, and we have let him get a death-grip on it.

Once again, there's a confusion of issues here. In my world (family, church, ministry life, even secular Southern community), women are still treated with respect, whatever they might be doing. I agree that our American society in general doesn't value womanhood as it should, partly as a result of women not wanting to be treated that way anymore. But that's an entirely different issue than what we're discussing in this thread. Women's participation in sports games doesn't entail men disrespecting women, or treating them in a non-chivalrous manner.

Now, regarding "equality with men," I'm not sure what you mean. As a woman who has been involved in sports, I freely acknowledge that I'll never be "equal with men" in that arena, and I have no desire to. Most women who play sports would say the same thing. Men are (and will always be) obviously stronger, faster, and generally more athletic than women. That's why professional sports teams aren't coed; women would get hurt for sure! And, since participation in sports hasn't ever been an exclusively male concept, there's no "lowering themselves to be men's equals" going on with women, either. Recreational sports like basketball and soccer aren't "low" or "high"; they're simply leisure activities which are enjoyed by people of all ages, skill levels and genders.

I think that your article expresses somewhat of a gut reaction (without any real thought, research, or documentation to back it up) against girls who indeed play sports in an inappropriate, unbecoming way. I'm with you on being repulsed by that kind of behavior! As I Corinthians 10:31 tells us, "whether therefore ye eat or drink or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God." However, IMO, your conclusions are pretty unreasonable. When you start with erroneous presuppositions (about maleness, femaleness, Scripture, and history) and throw in some faulty reasoning, that's usually what happens.

I'd welcome your feedback; I don't want this to be a monologue. Your article caused me to think, and to work through and solidify my ideas. So, thanks! Edited August 10, 2011 by Annie

[farouk]

...Have you witnessed a woman in hard labor? If twisting up one's face and gritting one's teeth in pain is characteristic of masculine behavior only, then men should be the ones carrying and delivering all the wee ones, not women. Pain and strenuous physical labor are not unique to the sporting arenas, or to the man's domain; they can be found in the laundry room, as heavy baskets of wet clothing are hoisted and carried. They can be found in the nursery, as not-so-young-anymore Mommy bends over to swing not-so-light Baby from the floor up into the air for a ride. They can be found in the kitchen, as large pots of stew are transferred from stove to table top, and as fingers are singed getting cookies from the oven. They can be found in the garden as bags of soil and fertilizer are lifted and dumped and spread. They can be found wherever there is work to be done...maybe even on Miss Linda's treadmill. These grimaces aren't limited to the soccer field or the basketball court, but are part of the fabric of life, as common reactions to the work that we all do.
...

Annie,

I kind of bowed out of this discussion, but I reread your comments and wanted to agree.

In many ways, women can prove to be 'tougher' than men, often from a psychological point of view.

Also, even with men, things that, rightly or wrongly, are sometimes regarded as contributing to a 'tough guy' image are things that women do with flair, often: e.g., a young man who gets his ears pierced might be regarded as more of a 'tough guy' than those who don't. I know that a lot of you guys wouldn't be into tattoos at all, but the fact remains that in North America just as many women as men go under the tattoo needle.

And yes I agree about the ongoing challenges of domestic life needing a physical toughness that men sometimes don't realize.

Blessings.

[JerryNumbers]

The fact remains Jesus set the example for being a manly man, a mans man. He had no tattoos, nor a ring in his ear, nor did he have long hair.

[John81]

The fact remains Jesus set the example for being a manly man, a mans man. He had no tattoos, nor a ring in his ear, nor did he have long hair.

So very true yet there seem to always be those who want to redefine that which is holy and that which is worldly.

God created men and women different. Neither is superior because of their God created differences nor is either inferior. A Christian man should be content with being a man and a Christian woman should be content with being a woman. Both should take on their roles in life heartily as unto the Lord.

Men or women taking on that which is for the other sex or taking on the things of the world is vanity and oftentimes sin.

We can trust that God knew what He was doing when he made us different and we can be fulfilled and serve God fully by living withing the bound and guidelines the Lord has set for us.

[Annie]

John, did you ever take a look at the links? What do you think of those sports programs? (As I said, I don't know anything about them other than the uniforms.)

Joel, do you have any feedback?

[Crushmaster]

Joel, do you have any feedback?

My apologies for not being around or providing more discussion. The reason for this is that things have been very, very difficult for me, and I have simply not been up to it.
God bless,
Joel ><>.