Members John81 Posted August 7, 2011 Members Share Posted August 7, 2011 Right, John. I was responding to MadeFree's idea that organized sports are necessarily different than "just goofing off," and also his idea that enrolling one's daughters in a sports program necessarily hinders those girls in the areas we've been talking about. I know of several colleges which IMO have great women's sports programs in which neither modesty nor femininity are violated. But, of course, there's room for disagreement there. Perhaps you and others could share a list of such colleges because I have yet to encounter even one. It would be good to know where proper Christian colleges are, and not just being proper in this category, but overall, for the good ones are becoming few across the board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Crushmaster Posted August 8, 2011 Author Members Share Posted August 8, 2011 (edited) Here is what I have written on the subject. Greetings, and blessings in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ. I am contacting you about - as the subject says - a serious matter: one serious to myself, and one serious in the Sight of the Lord. You may wonder why I am directing such a concern to the Athletics section of *** - well, I am doing that because it concerns this department exactly. Specifically? Women's sports. I want to try and demonstrate to you, according to Scripture, that God does not approve of women and girls in sports. Sports. A short word, yet one that has many things attached to it. What does it mean? It is something where teams or individuals compete in various ways, be it in running, gymnastics, a certain way persons handle a ball - or, what have you. Some sports are considered "contact sports" - American football comes to mind. Others, such as golf, running, tennis, etc., involve no contact (hopefully) between individuals. However, there is a continuous stream in all sports, regardless of its type: that word, "competition." What is competition? It is where two or more individuals are pitted against one another, trying to out-do each other in various ways. Traditionally, this is considered a masculine trait; competition, drive, force. It is what would push a man to fight to save a young woman from danger, what would inspire him to pursue her hand in marriage, to out-do other men, putting himself on top physically or mentally. Can this be considered a feminine trait? Look at our design - our mental, emotional, physical makeup. Why was woman made? She was made for the man (1 Corinthians 11:8-9); she was a gift from God to Adam. For, "He created them male and female" - thus implying a distinction, even from the beginning (we can learn much about men and women merely from Genesis 1-3, and our natural inclinations, put in us by God). 1 Corinthians 11:8-9 King James Version (KJV)8For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man.9Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man. Woman was (and is!) a precious, precious gift to man; a gift beyond price. She is lovely, delicate, soft, beautiful; or, so she ought to be. So is a jewel, a treasure; the weaker, yet the exalted vessel (1 Peter 3:7). What does this mean? That means she is to be treated with the utmost and absolute respect of men, and she ought to behave in a manner appropriate to her glorious, wonderful, God-given position - His special creation (the last!). 1 Peter 3:7 King James Version (KJV)7Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered. Men are more aggressive, bigger risk-takers, than women. Why? God made us that way. We can see in Scripture that God only counted men for war, that men were the ones who fought. Yet, sports requires a woman to be aggressive in some way, shape or form; some worse than others, to be sure (some supposedly Christian institutions have girls play football against each other in the damnable filth known as "powder puff football"); some less so. But, that could be said of many things - does that make it right? Look, for example, at pictures of women and girls playing sports - the expressions on their faces. Look at their bodies, some of them; trying to be masculine, when in the Sight of God, such is an abomination. The way their faces become twisted in such endeavors seems reason alone to question the rightness of such a thing. They snarl, become angry, grit their teeth in pain - since when did this become "feminine", acceptable? God desires women to be a gentle and quiet spirit (1 Peter 3:1-6) - is that "gentle and quiet", is that soft, is that lovely? Is that ladylike in any way? 1 Peter 3:1-6 King James Version (KJV) 1 Peter 31Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;2While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear.3Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;4But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.5For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:6Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement. Everything ought to be measured in this way: "Does this please God?" If we think so, why? If we don't think so, why? For Scripture is to be the authority in all things - God's will defeats all. Yet, we see God's work, His will even in creation. Look all the way back in Genesis, when man and woman were first created. God created Adam outside of the Garden, then put him in, but when Eve was made, she was inside of the Garden - a safe place. Adam had to suffer for her to come into being. Adam was commanded to work, before and after the Fall; was Eve? Was Eve commanded to eat by the sweat of her brow? No! Her curse involved child-bearing, the home; her place (Titus 2:4-5). Titus 2:4-5 King James Version (KJV)4That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,5To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed. I am so tired and hurt by this blurring of the lines. And if I am angered so - God's anger must be incredible. Look, look at how women and how men are today. Just look at it. God hates the removal, the muddying up of the pure, clear waters of distinction - in dress, in all things (Deuteronomy 22:5). He was the One Who made the distinction, male and female; not merely male, not merely female, but both! Separate, gloriously unequal, precious in God's Sight - His design! Deuteronomy 22:5 King James Version (KJV)5The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God. We must, I repeat, we must make sure that we do not grieve God in this manner. He wants, He desires men, guys to be godly, brave, tough, chivalrous, masculine gentlemen; the leaders, protectors, providers of all weaker. Women, girls to be godly, feminine ladies, soft, kind, supportive, submissive, compassionate. Do we not see these standards taught in Scripture? Do we not, besides all of Scripture, see this in our very natures? How men are larger and stronger - naturally? How even if woman tries vigorously, attempting ot overcome her hormones, she cannot gain all of the brute strength of a man who merely sits around and does nothing? If not, why? Why? Why do we allow ourselves to be blinded? What? Can we honestly say that sports are "feminine"? What do they inspire? What are sports? Are they not like "war-training"? They make one push, build strength, fight! Even in the lesser evils (evil is still evil!), they inspire un-feminine things; competition. Should women keep their bodies in shape, exercise? Absolutely, and so should men; our temples are the bodies of the Holy Spirit, God Himself, and we should treat them well. But they should not be un-feminine in doing so. God created them as they are for a reason, and they should not fight against the wonderful place He has given them, as precious jewels beyond price. Look, for example, at this verse in the Psalms... Psalm 144:12 King James Version (KJV)12That our sons may be as plants grown up in their youth; that our daughters may be as corner stones, polished after the similitude of a palace: Please, please, look at the Scriptures, look at men and women's physical, mental, emotional makeup, look at the natural things. I beg of you, do not continue in this. It is not good in the Sight of the Lord - He is grieved by it. I say with absolute confidence - yes, I would stake my life on its veracity - that He hates it, for it is against His perfect design. What, do we think we know better? Better than the Creator of our natures, of our frames, our makeup? Look, for example, at these facts... "Another source of a man's strength comes from his large muscle mass which results from the action of the hormone testosterone. During the man's adolescence testosterone builds his muscles by adding bulk and fiber. Likewise, a man's muscle cells increase in size until he turns forty. But a woman's muscle cells stop growing by the time she is ten or eleven. Men possess about 50 percent more muscles than women. (Stump, What's the Difference?> p. 134.) In contrast, the female hormone estrogen creates a greater fat storage in the woman, 27 percent to the man's 15 percent, to make her soft and lovely in appearance. Weight and height charts easily demonstrate this as men always weigh more than women of the same height and bone structure. The extra fat in the female plus her lack of comparative muscle fibers significantly lowers her physical strength. The man exhibits greater physical strength than the woman simply because his body contains more lean muscles with which to lift objects and work. While a man develops powerful muscles without effort on his part, a woman develops strength in her muscles only through vigorous exercise to overcome the action of her hormones. Even then she only achieves 60 to 70 percent of the strength of a man. (Stump, What's the Difference? pp. 134-135.) Thus, a man who never exercises, but simply lies on the divan all day watching television, still has more brute strength than a woman who exercises to her maximum limit. To do better, a woman must take anabolic steroids--artificial male hormones to stimulate muscle growth. Then she risks considerable health problems. (Eric Gelman, "In Sports, 'Lions Vs. Tigers,' " [Newsweek, 5/18/8], p. 75.)" Taken from here. I have scanned over the article, and agree with most of it; it contains a lot of interesting information about the differences between men and women, physically and otherwise. I think the sections, "Biologically Different" and "Psychologically Different" will be most relevant to the subject at hand, though there are a lot of interesting facts throughout. Women, girls in sports was virtually non-existent until the twentieth century (and, even then, hardly until the middle of that time period). Why? What, were men evil, sexist chauvinists? Do we twenty-first century Christians know better than them? Why, of course we do! For we are enlightened now, we don't do such evil things anymore. But, who is right? Women were once treated with respect. Chivalry - it inspires a man to treat woman like the precious jewel she is (and, even if she doesn't act godly, feminine, or ladylike in anyway, she ought to be treated like the most godly, feminine, beautiful, ladylike princess ever to walk this planet!); it is a wonderful thing. Why did men used to open doors for women, stand up when they entered a room, came to the table, left the table - et cetera? I heard of one man centuries ago who died of hypothermia or something of the like because he refused to wear a hat in a woman's presence. Respect to the death! Women and girls do not realize how wonderful they were created to be - how beautiful it is to be a godly, feminine lady. Today, this is shunned, in our liberalated society. Why do women want to lower themselves and be men's equals? Because satan has a hold on this country and on this world, and we have let him get a death-grip on it. Perhaps this treatise has not convinced you. If not, so be it; I am not a gifted writer by any means, but I have tried to speak the words of God clearly. If I have failed, forgive me. If you have questions, desire a more in-depth answer, whatever it may be, do not hesitate to contact me. I am here to help and bless everyone in every way I possibly can. Thank you for your time. Soli Deo Gloria. God bless, Joel Garner ><>. 2 Chronicles 7:14; Romans 5:8. So, those are my thoughts on the subject. The Scripture quotations look a bit weird, because they were originally in the NKJV, so I had to go get them from BibleGateway.com. A handy resource. Enjoy! God bless, Joel ><>. Edited August 8, 2011 by Crushmaster MadeFree92 and Miss Linda 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Annie Posted August 8, 2011 Members Share Posted August 8, 2011 (edited) http://www.ni.edu/sc...ens-basketball/ (Northland International University, Dunbar, WI)http://www.ni.edu/sc.../womens-soccer/http://www.ni.edu/sc...ens-volleyball/http://www.bju.edu/#...s%2D20101011=18 (Bob Jones University, Greenville, SC)http://www.bju.edu/#...s%2D20101011=18http://thecrowncolle...ics_volleyball/ (The Crown College, Tennessee)http://www.tbc.edu/p...p?page_id=34253 (Trinity Baptist College, Jacksonville, FL)http://www.tbc.edu/p...p?page_id=35367 John, these are just a few institutions which came to mind...As I said, there's room for disagreement. Some people might consider sleeveless garments and pants to be immodest. And, certainly, these links don't address "modest behavior"...I'm not familiar enough with these sports programs to comment on that. I'm just noting the uniforms. Edited August 8, 2011 by Annie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Annie Posted August 8, 2011 Members Share Posted August 8, 2011 (edited) And some more...http://www.pcci.edu/...cs/default.html (Pensacola Christian College, Pensacola, FL)http://www.pcci.edu/...cs/default.html Edited August 8, 2011 by Annie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Annie Posted August 8, 2011 Members Share Posted August 8, 2011 (edited) More...http://wcbc.edu/intramurals (West Coast Baptist College, Lancaster, CA)http://wcbc.edu/volleyball Edited August 8, 2011 by Annie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Annie Posted August 8, 2011 Members Share Posted August 8, 2011 (edited) Crushmaster, thanks for posting your article. A couple of questions/observations, if I may... First, about the concept of competition (in and of itself). What you say about it is partially true...but you appeal to a (dubious) "tradition" and (your interpretation of) psychology rather than Scripture. You base your whole argument on the fact that only men are traditionally considered to be "competitive," when there is no basis for that statement. Women are also competitive; they also have a "competitive drive." Ask any woman, and she'll tell you it's true. It might be expressed differently than it is expressed by men, and it might vary with personality type, but it's definitely there. Scripture tells us that Hadassah (Esther) took part in a "beauty competition." Ancient women (wives) were constantly in competition with one another to produce the most male heirs for the husband (and therefore to be the favored wife); this kind of competition was woven into the fabric of their culture. Their songs of thanksgiving to God for allowing them to "triumph" are scattered throughout scripture. Historically, women have participated in various competitions, demonstrating that even tradition does not support the statement that women are not by nature competitive. (Think about county fairs, "Sadie Hawkins" gatherings, and beauty competitions that go way, way back to the most ancient times.) We can see, then, from the Bible and history that "competition" is not limited to the "male psyche," but is a human trait that transcends culture and gender. Common everyday experience supports this idea as well. Never is this more obvious than when we observe children at work and play...Boys and girls alike make games--competitions--out of just about everything...Who can get their room cleaned first? Who can run the fastest, jump the highest, yell the loudest? Who can eat the most pancakes? Who can count the highest? Males and females alike enjoy playing board games, and, while men might be "noisier" about wanting to win, and/or take it harder when they lose, women do not lack a competitive drive to win the game. So, the notion that only men are "competitive beings" is (IMO) completely false. I'm pretty sure that neither men or women were created by God to be competitive...In a perfect world, what would there be to compete over, since everyone would exist in a state of perfection? Competition in both genders might then be (IMO) a side effect of the Fall...not that "competition" is entirely negative for that reason...just that when there is a need to "conquer" aspects of nature--to subdue it--people are always interested in how to do it the best/fastest/most efficiently...and competition naturally ensues: "Hey, look at how Bob did that!" "Let's see if we can figure out an even better way!" "Yeah, let's get more people involved and see what everybody comes up with!" ETC. This is true whether we're talking about growing crops, or baking the tastiest bread (cooking competition), or slowing/disguising the ravages of age (beauty competition), or mastering the art of language (spelling bees), or taking the sin-cursed materials of nature and creating something beautiful (art, music, textile competition), or disciplining the body to be fit and able to do certain tasks in the most graceful/efficient/beautiful/coordinated way (sports competition). Competition reflects reality in the most basic ways. As long as we're bound to this earth, competition is a way of life. It's the main thing that reminds us of the "real" battles going on...between good and evil, between flesh and spirit, between beauty and ugliness, between children of God and the "principalities and powers," between that which makes alive and that which corrupts. No, competition isn't unique to males...not at all. In this post, I've tried to address your first paragraph only, and to establish that the desire to compete is not unique to males, but is a universal human trait, and occurs naturally in both genders. I'm not yet suggesting how to apply this information, or asserting that complete carte blanche should be given to either gender regarding "competition." Certainly, there are other guiding principles from Scripture which should be considered. I'll try to address more of the article later on...but I have to go now. Edited August 10, 2011 by Annie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Annie Posted August 8, 2011 Members Share Posted August 8, 2011 (edited) Woman was (and is!) a precious, precious gift to man; a gift beyond price. She is lovely, delicate, soft, beautiful; or, so she ought to be. So is a jewel, a treasure; the weaker, yet the exalted vessel (1 Peter 3:7). What does this mean? That means she is to be treated with the utmost and absolute respect of men, and she ought to behave in a manner appropriate to her glorious, wonderful, God-given position - His special creation (the last!). I couldn't agree more with this paragraph, Crushmaster. I like the way you worded it, too! It's interesting that, while physical exercise tones muscles in both men and women, women are still naturally softer. (I think you even mentioned this at some point.) I've been swimming and running all summer, getting in shape, trying to drop the excess weight that my hormonal makeup has so generously provided for me ...and my husband has been exercising as well. After a few months, guess who is "ripped" and who isn't. The fact that women engage in physical exercise doesn't necessarily usurp God's design for their bodies. Competitive exercise between women can actually produce the positive result of making them more beautiful, more fit, less slovenly, disciplined in mind and body...like the Proverbs 31 woman, with strong arms and a clear mind. Edited August 8, 2011 by Annie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Annie Posted August 8, 2011 Members Share Posted August 8, 2011 (edited) Men are more aggressive, bigger risk-takers, than women. Why? God made us that way. We can see in Scripture that God only counted men for war, that men were the ones who fought. Yet, sports requires a woman to be aggressive in some way, shape or form; some worse than others, to be sure (some supposedly Christian institutions have girls play football against each other in the damnable filth known as "powder puff football"); some less so. But, that could be said of many things - does that make it right? This paragraph throws together several different kinds of issues. I'd like to unpack them, if I may. Saying that men are "more agressive" and "bigger risk-takers" than women tacitly acknowledges that women are "less aggressive" and "smaller risk-takers." This statement does not support the idea that women should never be aggressive or take risks. Scripture is full of stories of women who "took risks" and were aggressive in positive ways...Abigail, Ruth, Esther, Jaal, Jochebed, Prov. 31 woman, woman with the issue of blood, etc. If anything, this statement might cause us to consider questions regarding proper and positive expressions, outlets, and venues which give proper place and opportunity for females to exercise these traits in ways that wouldn't compromise biblical principles, and would make them better servants of Christ, more disciplined in mind and body...I think certain sports competitions are perfectly suited for this. This is not to say that every kind of sporting competition is appropriate for women, and I think it confuses matters to place all kinds of sports on the same level. Football is different than soccer (at least in America ); boxing is different than volleyball; wrestling is different than softball. If anything, this paragraph of yours supports the idea that competitive sports should be suited to the natural expressions of aggressiveness/risk taking found in the different genders...not that all competitive sports should be off limits to females. Applying your idea to sports, we would say that sports which incorporate "heavy aggression" (boxing, wrestling, football) and "more risk-taking" (extreme mountain biking, etc.) would be more appropriate for those who are "more aggressive" and "bigger risk takers," while sports which incorporate less aggression (soccer, volleyball, tennis, softball, swimming, and a whole host of other competitive sports) are better suited to those who are "less aggressive" and "smaller risk-takers." Side note: It's interesting to me that there is room even within one sport for different levels of aggression and risk-taking. The female version of basketball, tennis, etc., looks different than the male version, because of the very differences you've highlighted here. I'll hold off addressing further material for now; don't want to monopolize the conversation! Edited August 9, 2011 by Annie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Miss Linda Posted August 8, 2011 Members Share Posted August 8, 2011 Crushmaster, you have written a wonderful treatise. May I share this with members of my church? I know our elders and pastor would appreciate what you have written here. I am thankful to report that gender distinction in dress and deportment is periodically the subject of sermons and Bible studies at our church and I know they would be blessed by what you have written. I realize what you have written is not a popular viewpoint, the more secular "anything goes, let's look like the world" attitude is far more prevalent. I am thankful to God for your courage in sharing this and pray that you will remain steadfast in all things. "Then shalt thou prosper, if thou takest heed to fulfil the statutes and judgments which the Lord charged Moses with concerning Israel: be strong, and of good courage; dread not, nor be dismayed." (1 Chronicles 22:13) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Covenanter Posted August 8, 2011 Members Share Posted August 8, 2011 Perhaps the most dangerous sport is chess, though it is non-contact & can be played with the body covered & the eyes veiled. As a teenager I was one of the best young players, holding my own against British Championship contenders. I've hardly played in the last 50 years due to marriage, raising a family, Christian service, etc, BUT the game is played in the mind, & can take over our minds. I could play chess blindfold, & still, when I sit quietly I play chess in my mind. I'd much rather meditate in the Word. In theory women should be able to take on men at chess on equal terms, but I suspect the multi-tasking women are so good at inhibits their concentration on chess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Crushmaster Posted August 9, 2011 Author Members Share Posted August 9, 2011 I couldn't agree more with this paragraph, Crushmaster. I like the way you worded it, too! It's interesting that, while physical exercise tones muscles in both men and women, women are still naturally softer. (I think you even mentioned this at some point.) I've been swimming and running all summer, getting in shape, trying to drop the excess weight that my hormonal makeup has so generously provided for me ...and my husband has been exercising as well. After a few months, guess who is "ripped" and who isn't. The fact that women engage in physical exercise doesn't necessarily usurp God's design for their bodies. Competitive exercise between women can actually produce the positive result of making them more beautiful, more fit, less slovenly, disciplined in mind and body...like the Proverbs 31 woman, with strong arms and a clear mind. I one hundred percent agree that exercise is important for both sexes. We should all, male and female, take care of the Holy Spirit's temple - our bodies. This paragraph throws together several different kinds of issues. I'd like to unpack them, if I may. Saying that men are "more agressive" and "bigger risk-takers" than women tacitly acknowledges that women are "less aggressive" and "smaller risk-takers." This statement does not support the idea that women should never be aggressive or take risks. Scripture is full of stories of women who "took risks" and were aggressive in positive ways...Abigail, Ruth, Esther, Jaal, Jochebed, Prov. 31 woman, woman with the issue of blood, etc. If anything, this statement might cause us to consider questions regarding proper and positive expressions, outlets, and venues which give proper place and opportunity for females to exercise these traits in ways that wouldn't compromise biblical principles, and would make them better servants of Christ, more disciplined in mind and body...I think certain sports competitions are perfectly suited for this. This is not to say that every kind of sporting competition is appropriate for women, and I think it confuses matters to place all kinds of sports on the same level. Football is different than soccer (at least in America ); boxing is different than volleyball; wrestling is different than softball. If anything, this paragraph of yours supports the idea that competitive sports should be suited to the natural expressions of aggressiveness/risk taking found in the different genders...not that all competitive sports should be off limits to females. Applying your idea to sports, we would say that sports which incorporate "heavy aggression" (boxing, wrestling, football) and "more risk-taking" (extreme mountain biking, etc.) would be more appropriate for those who are "more aggressive" and "bigger risk takers," while sports which incorporate less aggression (soccer, volleyball, tennis, softball, swimming, and a whole host of other competitive sports) are better suited to those who are "less aggressive" and "smaller risk-takers." Side note: It's interesting to me that there is room even within one sport for different levels of aggression and risk-taking. The female version of basketball, tennis, etc., looks different than the male version, because of the very differences you've highlighted here. I'll hold off addressing further material for now; don't want to monopolize the conversation! I don't agree, but I don't really feel like arguing, either. I very much appreciate your thoughts, though - discussion and sharing is good. It is how we learn. Crushmaster, you have written a wonderful treatise. May I share this with members of my church? I know our elders and pastor would appreciate what you have written here. I am thankful to report that gender distinction in dress and deportment is periodically the subject of sermons and Bible studies at our church and I know they would be blessed by what you have written. I realize what you have written is not a popular viewpoint, the more secular "anything goes, let's look like the world" attitude is far more prevalent. I am thankful to God for your courage in sharing this and pray that you will remain steadfast in all things."Then shalt thou prosper, if thou takest heed to fulfil the statutes and judgments which the Lord charged Moses with concerning Israel: be strong, and of good courage; dread not, nor be dismayed." (1 Chronicles 22:13) Certainly! Share away. Any good in that article is from the Lord, not I. Thanks for all the thoughts, everyone! God bless, Joel ><>. 2 Chronicles 7:14; Romans 5:8. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Annie Posted August 9, 2011 Members Share Posted August 9, 2011 (edited) Okay...I think I'll try to address a couple more things about Joel's article. To recap...First, I commented on Joel's question, "Can [competitiveness] be a feminine trait?" My answer is, Yes, not only can it be a feminine trait, but it is a feminine trait. It's a trait which transcends time, culture, and gender, ever since the Fall of man and the curse of the ground. People are competitive by nature, some more than others. Competitiveness in a female (desire to win, and pursuit of victory) in no way compromises her status as the male's "fit helper." Does Joel forbid the women and girls in his life to play board games, or bid on eBay, or participate in Sunday school review games? If not, he is inconsistent upon this point. Second, I addressed the faulty logic of supposing that, because women are generally not as aggressive/risk-taking as men, they must be completely passive, never aggressive, and never take risks, or be involved in any activity which requires aggression or risk taking. Both Scripture and history bear out the fact that aggressiveness and risk taking (like competitive drive) are present in both women and men, just to a different degree. Applying this idea to sports, I noted that not all sports are created equal, and that some sports (ones which require heavy aggression) are more fitted to men, and others (ones which require less aggression) should not be considered off-limits to girls and women. Now, I'll try to address Joel's next paragraph: Look, for example, at pictures of women and girls playing sports - the expressions on their faces. Look at their bodies, some of them; trying to be masculine, when in the Sight of God, such is an abomination. The way their faces become twisted in such endeavors seems reason alone to question the rightness of such a thing. They snarl, become angry, grit their teeth in pain - since when did this become "feminine", acceptable? God desires women to be a gentle and quiet spirit (1 Peter 3:1-6) - is that "gentle and quiet", is that soft, is that lovely? Is that ladylike in any way? Again, a lot of issues thrown together here, which are not necessarily related. First, I acknowledge that certainly there are women who "are trying to be masculine" in sports, just like they would "try to be masculine" in other areas and situations in their lives (dress, general demeanor and attitude), no matter where they are or what they are doing. The sport itself is not to be blamed for such character flaws. Same with the "snarling" and getting angry. The problem runs deeper than just playing a sport; many, many women I've observed over the years as both a player and a coach don't do any of this, but play gracefully, with poise and class, never trying to be masculine or exhibiting masculine characteristics. (And, my husband--at 6'6", with defined muscles and testosterone aplenty--has never done any of these things, either...If, in days gone by, as his girlfriend, I would have seen him snarling and getting angry on the basketball court, I'd have wondered if there were major character flaws in that crazy guy. I don't think men should display this kind of behavior any more than women should. It's not appropriate for any servant of Christ, male or female.) Joel, are you married? If so, are you a father? Have you witnessed a woman in hard labor? If twisting up one's face and gritting one's teeth in pain is characteristic of masculine behavior only, then men should be the ones carrying and delivering all the wee ones, not women. Pain and strenuous physical labor are not unique to the sporting arenas, or to the man's domain; they can be found in the laundry room, as heavy baskets of wet clothing are hoisted and carried. They can be found in the nursery, as not-so-young-anymore Mommy bends over to swing not-so-light Baby from the floor up into the air for a ride. They can be found in the kitchen, as large pots of stew are transferred from stove to table top, and as fingers are singed getting cookies from the oven. They can be found in the garden as bags of soil and fertilizer are lifted and dumped and spread. They can be found wherever there is work to be done...maybe even on Miss Linda's treadmill. These grimaces aren't limited to the soccer field or the basketball court, but are part of the fabric of life, as common reactions to the work that we all do. More to come...Kids need me. Violin and cello auditions coming up... Edited August 18, 2011 by Annie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Miss Linda Posted August 9, 2011 Members Share Posted August 9, 2011 Certainly! Share away. Any good in that article is from the Lord, not I. Thanks for all the thoughts, everyone! God bless, Joel ><>. 2 Chronicles 7:14; Romans 5:8. Thank you. I plan to print out your article and take it with me to Bible study Wednesday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators HappyChristian Posted August 9, 2011 Administrators Share Posted August 9, 2011 :goodpost: , Annie. Joel, thanks for your thoughts, very well written...I really would be interested to hear how you respond to Annie's responses. Not as an argument, but so as to further the discussion. Annie's brought up many valid points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators HappyChristian Posted August 9, 2011 Administrators Share Posted August 9, 2011 Perhaps you and others could share a list of such colleges because I have yet to encounter even one. It would be good to know where proper Christian colleges are, and not just being proper in this category, but overall, for the good ones are becoming few across the board. Fairhaven. :icon_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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