Members MadeFree92 Posted August 5, 2011 Members Share Posted August 5, 2011 So, in high school, the boys can get fit and do exercises, while for 'religious' reasons it doesn't matter if girls stay unfit, and become obese, through lack of exercise? I wonder what sort of pr or advertisement this brings to Christian testimony? Straw man. I never said that nor anything I said could possibly mean that. I believe exercise is important for both sexes, but I do not believe in organized rigorous sports for women. There are all kinds of forms of exercise that are not organized sports. My argument is not against young women playing games, I have no problem with them playing games and staying fit, in fact I would support and encourage them to stay fit, God gave us bodies to be good stewards over them, but He expects us to be good stewards within the bounds of how He has commanded us to act and to demonstrate. For instance would it be right for me to be a professional athlete and play on Sunday? I'm keeping my body fit, and supporting my family at the same time, being a good steward of my body and my family, but I am also not in church worshiping the Lord. To be a steward of my body I would be violating the practice of corporate worship which God expects out of His people. Also, I would not be demonstrating my respect for God by ignoring corporate worship and to the world would be a hypocrite. However, I could also exercise regularly to stay fit and get a regular job to support my family, and be faithful to services at my local assembly and be a good steward in the bounds God has given me. Let me just state this clearly so there is no misunderstanding. I DO believe that men and women BOTH are to be fit. But I DO NOT believe that women should be fit by practicing unfeminine behavior. Miss Linda 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MadeFree92 Posted August 5, 2011 Members Share Posted August 5, 2011 (edited) I'm not sure those are the questions we should be asking. I do things all the time (and teach my girls to do things) that are not directly related to loving husband and children, or following the other admonitions above directly. For example, my daughter will be taking Algebra I from me this year. Algebra I has nothing to do with any of the above concepts from Scripture. We swim just about every day in the summer. (We're fortunate enough to have a large lake on our property.) Swimming in the lake doesn't teach any of these things, either. Neither does singing in the choir, playing the violin, or many other things our family (girls) do on a weekly basis. So, are these activities off limits, because they do not teach these concepts directly? Let's use your criteria to evaluate whether a girl should learn to play the violin: "So we must ask the question, does [playing the violin] teach young women to love their husbands? Does it teach them to love their children? Does it teach them to be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, and obedient to their own husbands? This is what we must ask. What is right with women playing [the violin]? What does the Bible teach women to do and demonstrate and does this display that practically?" I'd have to answer your questions in this way: Knowing how to play the violin doesn't teach young women to love husbands or children. It doesn't teach them to be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good and obedient to their own husbands. The Bible doesn't say anything about young women playing violins. Therefore (according to your reasoning), no girl should ever learn to play a violin. Here's an alternative approach (one which I think makes more sense in this case): I should be teaching my daughters that whatever they do--swim in the lake, play the violin, sing in the choir, work an algebra problem, climb a tree--should be done in a way that would not trespass against these admonitions. I am certainly seeking to instill these values in my girls' lives; I want these ideals to permeate their very beings, so that whatever they are doing they do with modesty, sobriety, etc., demonstrating the kind of love the Bible teaches. When they are on the soccer field, they comport themselves with modesty (not calling attention to themselves) and sobriety (self control and good sense) and shamefacedness (reverence for God and respect for others). They don't "showboat" (a violation of modesty and shamefacedness); they don't dress immodestly (violating chastity); and they don't lose their meek demeanor. They help those who fall down--teammate and opponent alike--by giving them a hand up (demonstrating biblical love). There is nothing inherent in competetive team sports which violates any of these principles, IMO. Do you disagree? Okay, good point. Let's add on to my previous question: Can practically display something, and glorify God with it? You may not be able to teach all of those biblical principles by playing the violin, true. But you can glorify God directly with a violin in a modest, feminine, manner. I've yet to see someone glorify God by playing female competitive organized sports. Maybe this is a little extreme, but how feminine and modest does this look? (From and Independent Baptist College Website) Edited August 5, 2011 by MadeFree92 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Annie Posted August 5, 2011 Members Share Posted August 5, 2011 I do not believe in organized rigorous sports for women....<<snip>>...I DO NOT believe that women should be fit by practicing unfeminine behavior. Thanks for clarifying, MF92. I am interested to understand what you are saying. First, what do you mean by "organized rigorous sports"? And second, why do you believe that a woman cannot participate in these sports without practicing unfeminine behavior? IOW, what makes "organized rigorous sports" and "femininity" mutually exclusive concepts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MadeFree92 Posted August 5, 2011 Members Share Posted August 5, 2011 Thanks for clarifying, MF92. I am interested to understand what you are saying. First, what do you mean by "organized rigorous sports"? And second, why do you believe that a woman cannot participate in these sports without practicing unfeminine behavior? IOW, what makes "organized rigorous sports" and "femininity" mutually exclusive concepts? I would consider football (big time) hockey, some extreme basketball, softball, and others that are often extremely physical and hard to be rigorous. God told man to work by the sweat of his face, and most would consider hard physical work to be a thing that is for men. God set it up that way, the same way we consider childcare primarily a woman's specialty because it was what God gifted them with the ability to do, though both sexes are capable of handling children. There is some work that women are not designed to do, that is why God gave the job to men, and there are some jobs that men are not designed to do that is why God designed it for women. If there is to be clear distinction between the two, I would classify rigorous work for men, for their endurance level for certain things is higher. Now this is not a universal reality, there are some exceptions in which women can do things, but it all goes back to the question does it display their God-given role and glorify God? Apply that to organized sports. Miss Linda 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members John81 Posted August 5, 2011 Members Share Posted August 5, 2011 I wholeheartedly agree about the cost of the believer's redemption. This is something I regularly mention in my own prayers, so I certainly agree there. Re. the sports thing, I'm not sure I see the idea that all sports for women mean immodesty. (But if there is concern there, I guess they can always wear pants; but what do I know?) Again, you try to change what has been discussed or add to what others have said. Several times it's been said that SOME sports are not for women. I've not noticed anyone say that all sports should be avoided by women. You mention pants, which most (or perhaps today it's just many) IFBs reject as modest clothing for women. Yet we both know that's not what women wear when playing most sports. Most are wearing shorts, often very short, or sometimes short skirts (such as in tennis). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators HappyChristian Posted August 5, 2011 Administrators Share Posted August 5, 2011 Hmmm - that photo is from an IFB college website? Would you pm me the name, just out of curiosity? If ladies' sports are done right (in my opinion), then you wouldn't see it, MadeFree. Because I don't believe that males should be watching females play - for modesty reasons, even if modestly attired. That, however, is MO. And, John, just so you know: none of our girls play in shorts of any length (even when they play tennis)...Culottes are not always modest, if the play is too rigorous - and that is one reason I don't think girl's games should be watched by boys. There is a way to play and remain feminine. The key is to make sure that, if your girls are involved in teams, their coaches are modest and demand modesty of their players. Other aspects of teamwork do undergird biblical principles that are important for girls to learn, as has been pointed out. If parents don't want their girls to play sports, then that should be respected. But, also, if parents want their girls to play, since there is no biblical prohibition, that should also be respected. And, no, that isn't a compromise. It's an application of scripture. The verses that have been used may apply, most definitely. But they do not prohibit all sports for ladies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members farouk Posted August 6, 2011 Members Share Posted August 6, 2011 Again, you try to change what has been discussed or add to what others have said. Several times it's been said that SOME sports are not for women. I've not noticed anyone say that all sports should be avoided by women. You mention pants, which most (or perhaps today it's just many) IFBs reject as modest clothing for women. Yet we both know that's not what women wear when playing most sports. Most are wearing shorts, often very short, or sometimes short skirts (such as in tennis). Okay, I am completely out of my depth in this thread, now. I haven't a clue what to say next. Maybe I'll bow out to those who have more expertise... :unsure: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Annie Posted August 6, 2011 Members Share Posted August 6, 2011 I would consider football (big time) hockey, some extreme basketball, softball, and others that are often extremely physical and hard to be rigorous. God told man to work by the sweat of his face, and most would consider hard physical work to be a thing that is for men. God set it up that way, the same way we consider childcare primarily a woman's specialty because it was what God gifted them with the ability to do, though both sexes are capable of handling children. There is some work that women are not designed to do, that is why God gave the job to men, and there are some jobs that men are not designed to do that is why God designed it for women. If there is to be clear distinction between the two, I would classify rigorous work for men, for their endurance level for certain things is higher. Now this is not a universal reality, there are some exceptions in which women can do things, but it all goes back to the question does it display their God-given role and glorify God? Apply that to organized sports. So, you're not saying that certain organized competitive sports (like soccer, basketball, volleyball) are "anti-feminine"? (I'm surprised to see that softball made your "rigorous" list.) Ice hockey (from my perspective) has the reputation of being a "fighting sport," but I don't think that in the right setting, with the right coaches, hockey couldn't be played by girls in a way that would be glorifying to God. But, you're right, the "reputation" of hockey is more masculine than feminine. Am I reading you right? (Thanks for continuing to clarify.) LuAnne, I agree with the spirit of your post...I've seen that girls can play various team sports without violating the principles of Scripture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MadeFree92 Posted August 6, 2011 Members Share Posted August 6, 2011 (edited) So, you're not saying that certain organized competitive sports (like soccer, basketball, volleyball) are "anti-feminine"? (I'm surprised to see that softball made your "rigorous" list.) Ice hockey (from my perspective) has the reputation of being a "fighting sport," but I don't think that in the right setting, with the right coaches, hockey couldn't be played by girls in a way that would be glorifying to God. But, you're right, the "reputation" of hockey is more masculine than feminine. Am I reading you right? (Thanks for continuing to clarify.) LuAnne, I agree with the spirit of your post...I've seen that girls can play various team sports without violating the principles of Scripture. Well, you mostly have me right, I don't agree with women in organized competitive sports period. Now, I do not mind some playing some for fun, like volleyball or tennis, (just an example, not making a rule out of it) for instance, or something that is fairly easy, sure. I guess that's fine. But I disagree with organized competitive sports, not sports in general, but organized competitive sports. I'm trying to clear things up a bit, glad it's working so far. Edited August 6, 2011 by MadeFree92 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members John81 Posted August 6, 2011 Members Share Posted August 6, 2011 Hmmm - that photo is from an IFB college website? Would you pm me the name, just out of curiosity? If ladies' sports are done right (in my opinion), then you wouldn't see it, MadeFree. Because I don't believe that males should be watching females play - for modesty reasons, even if modestly attired. That, however, is MO. And, John, just so you know: none of our girls play in shorts of any length (even when they play tennis)...Culottes are not always modest, if the play is too rigorous - and that is one reason I don't think girl's games should be watched by boys. There is a way to play and remain feminine. The key is to make sure that, if your girls are involved in teams, their coaches are modest and demand modesty of their players. Other aspects of teamwork do undergird biblical principles that are important for girls to learn, as has been pointed out. If parents don't want their girls to play sports, then that should be respected. But, also, if parents want their girls to play, since there is no biblical prohibition, that should also be respected. And, no, that isn't a compromise. It's an application of scripture. The verses that have been used may apply, most definitely. But they do not prohibit all sports for ladies. Yes, I recall you mentioned that about your school. Most here seem to agree that at least some sports are acceptable for women to play, if appropiately dressed and conducted. I agree with your point with regards to women's sports shouldn't be spectator sports, but they typically are at the moment. If women's sports were held in a biblical manner, modest, right teaching, etc., then I could agree that parents could be in their biblical right to wish for or to allow their daughters to partake of such. However, if they tell or let their daughters play sports that are done in an unbiblical manner, the parents would be stepping outside of what Scripture permits. The move is on today among most Christian schools to be just like the worldly schools in such matters. This isn't a good trend but Christian parents continue to send their kids to these schools and many hold to the worldly views of sports. When sporting events or sports related events are held during church hours, many pews go empty because sports is such a high priority. MadeFree92 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Annie Posted August 6, 2011 Members Share Posted August 6, 2011 (edited) Well, you mostly have me right, I don't agree with women in organized competitive sports period. Now, I do not mind some playing some for fun, like volleyball or tennis, (just an example, not making a rule out of it) for instance, or something that is fairly easy, sure. I guess that's fine. But I disagree with organized competitive sports, not sports in general, but organized competitive sports. I'm trying to clear things up a bit, glad it's working so far. Thanks. I guess I don't see a big difference between playing casually (or, as you put it, for fun) and playing the same game in what is just a more organized fashion (with practices, game schedule, etc.). Can you explain what the difference is, and how simply enrolling our daughters in a sports "program" is harmful to their understanding of femininity and modesty? Edited August 6, 2011 by Annie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members John81 Posted August 6, 2011 Members Share Posted August 6, 2011 Are women wearing tight shorts or mini-skirts and tight tops dressed modestly? This is the common attire for women in several sports. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Annie Posted August 6, 2011 Members Share Posted August 6, 2011 (edited) Hard to imagine anything more modest than this... Edited August 6, 2011 by Annie Pastor Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members John81 Posted August 7, 2011 Members Share Posted August 7, 2011 The above pictures are of little children. The most common attire for college athletics is not like that and not modest for most sports. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Annie Posted August 7, 2011 Members Share Posted August 7, 2011 Right, John. I was responding to MadeFree's idea that organized sports are necessarily different than "just goofing off," and also his idea that enrolling one's daughters in a sports program necessarily hinders those girls in the areas we've been talking about. I know of several colleges which IMO have great women's sports programs in which neither modesty nor femininity are violated. But, of course, there's room for disagreement there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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