Discussion Topic - Women in Sports?

[Crushmaster]

I guess in theory the matter is related to whether, if women are going to have a college education at all, they can do so using similar activities and facilities that male students have. But I don't think it can be seriously advanced that women either shouldn't go to college, or, once there, should be expected just to sit and watch the men do sports.

So I find the OP a bit obscure, I suppose.

It's supposed to be obscure. This is a discussion topic - it's supposed to invoke discussion, not be where I put exactly what I believe in the opening post. I just ask what you think, then I'll probably add my complete thoughts later.

...I mentioned a letter I wrote to a Christian college on the subject, and I will probably post it shortly.
God bless,
Joel ><>. Edited August 3, 2011 by Crushmaster

[farouk]

It's supposed to be obscure. This is a discussion topic - it's supposed to invoke discussion, not be where I put exactly what I believe in the opening post. I just ask what you think, then I'll probably add my complete thoughts later.

...I mentioned a letter I wrote to a Christian college on the subject, and I will probably post it shortly.
God bless,
Joel ><>.

Okay; & okay. Edited August 3, 2011 by farouk

[farouk]

I just think this topic is a gnat to strain at.

:amen:

[MadeFree92]

I just think this topic is a gnat to strain at.

I respectfully disagree. Our practical theology is very important to get right, for the world watches what we practice. If worldly people are watching what we do and that is somehow to be a testimony of what we believe and Who we believe in, then we must take extreme care to present a Biblical belief system in our practice. I would consider something like "what church service do you put your tithe in" to be a gnat to strain at. This matter is something completely different, this is something that is openly displayed towards all, so we must be sure that what we do is right. Discussion on something like this is healthy and causes us to look to our position and understand the biblical concepts behind them, if any, and examine the subject in light of what the Bible teaches. If our practice lines up with Biblical teaching, then it displays a Biblical truth practically. If it does not line up with the Bible, then why do we do it?

The Bible teaches:

"That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed." - Titus 2:4-5

So we must ask the question, does sports teach young women to love their husbands? Does it teach them to love their children? Does it teach them to be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, and obedient to their own husbands? This is what we must ask. What is right with women playing organized sports? What does the Bible teach women to do and demonstrate and does this display that practically?

"In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;" - 1 Timothy 2:9

Now we must ask the question, does sports teach or display that women should wear modest apparel? Does it teach or display shamefacedness? Does it teach or display sobriety? Does this display or teach practically this Biblical truth?

Those are the questions we should be asking.

Hope that all came out as I intended. :D Edited August 4, 2011 by MadeFree92

[Miss Linda]

Our practical theology is very important to get right, for the world watches what we practice. If worldly people are watching what we do and that is somehow to be a testimony of what we believe and Who we believe in, then we must take extreme care to present a Biblical belief system in our practice. I would consider something like "what church service do you put your tithe in" to be a gnat to strain at. This matter is something completely different, this is something that is openly displayed towards all, so we must be sure that what we do is right. Discussion on something like this is healthy and causes us to look to our position and understand the biblical concepts behind them, if any, and examine the subject in light of what the Bible teaches. If our practice lines up with Biblical teaching, then it displays a Biblical truth practically. If it does not line up with the Bible, then why do we do it? The Bible teaches: "That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed." - Titus 2:4-5 So we must ask the question, does sports teach young women to love their husbands? Does it teach them to love their children? Does it teach them to be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, and obedient to their own husbands? This is what we must ask. What is right with women playing organized sports? What does the Bible teach women to do and demonstrate and does this display that practically? "In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;" - 1 Timothy 2:9 Now we must ask the question, does sports teach or display that women should wear modest apparel? Does it teach or display shamefacedness? Does it teach or display sobriety? Does this display or teach practically this Biblical truth? Those are the questions we should be asking. Hope that all came out as I intended.

This was an excellent post. Thank you so much for this! Edited August 4, 2011 by Miss Linda

[farouk]

So, in high school, the boys can get fit and do exercises, while for 'religious' reasons it doesn't matter if girls stay unfit, and become obese, through lack of exercise?

I wonder what sort of pr or advertisement this brings to Christian testimony?

[Annie]

I respectfully disagree. Our practical theology is very important to get right, for the world watches what we practice. If worldly people are watching what we do and that is somehow to be a testimony of what we believe and Who we believe in, then we must take extreme care to present a Biblical belief system in our practice. I would consider something like "what church service do you put your tithe in" to be a gnat to strain at. This matter is something completely different, this is something that is openly displayed towards all, so we must be sure that what we do is right. Discussion on something like this is healthy and causes us to look to our position and understand the biblical concepts behind them, if any, and examine the subject in light of what the Bible teaches. If our practice lines up with Biblical teaching, then it displays a Biblical truth practically. If it does not line up with the Bible, then why do we do it?

The Bible teaches:

"That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed." - Titus 2:4-5

So we must ask the question, does sports teach young women to love their husbands? Does it teach them to love their children? Does it teach them to be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, and obedient to their own husbands? This is what we must ask. What is right with women playing organized sports? What does the Bible teach women to do and demonstrate and does this display that practically?

"In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;" - 1 Timothy 2:9

Now we must ask the question, does sports teach or display that women should wear modest apparel? Does it teach or display shamefacedness? Does it teach or display sobriety? Does this display or teach practically this Biblical truth?

Those are the questions we should be asking. (emphasis added)

Hope that all came out as I intended.

I'm not sure those are the questions we should be asking. I do things all the time (and teach my girls to do things) that are not directly related to loving husband and children, or following the other admonitions above directly. For example, my daughter will be taking Algebra I from me this year. Algebra I has nothing to do with any of the above concepts from Scripture. We swim just about every day in the summer. (We're fortunate enough to have a large lake on our property.) Swimming in the lake doesn't teach any of these things, either. Neither does singing in the choir, playing the violin, or many other things our family (girls) do on a weekly basis. So, are these activities off limits, because they do not teach these concepts directly?

Let's use your criteria to evaluate whether a girl should learn to play the violin:
"So we must ask the question, does [playing the violin] teach young women to love their husbands? Does it teach them to love their children? Does it teach them to be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, and obedient to their own husbands? This is what we must ask. What is right with women playing [the violin]? What does the Bible teach women to do and demonstrate and does this display that practically?"

I'd have to answer your questions in this way: Knowing how to play the violin doesn't teach young women to love husbands or children. It doesn't teach them to be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good and obedient to their own husbands. The Bible doesn't say anything about young women playing violins. Therefore (according to your reasoning), no girl should ever learn to play a violin.

Here's an alternative approach (one which I think makes more sense in this case): I should be teaching my daughters that whatever they do--swim in the lake, play the violin, sing in the choir, work an algebra problem, climb a tree--should be done in a way that would not trespass against these admonitions. I am certainly seeking to instill these values in my girls' lives; I want these ideals to permeate their very beings, so that whatever they are doing they do with modesty, sobriety, etc., demonstrating the kind of love the Bible teaches. When they are on the soccer field, they comport themselves with modesty (not calling attention to themselves) and sobriety (self control and good sense) and shamefacedness (reverence for God and respect for others). They don't "showboat" (a violation of modesty and shamefacedness); they don't dress immodestly (violating chastity); and they don't lose their meek demeanor. They help those who fall down--teammate and opponent alike--by giving them a hand up (demonstrating biblical love). There is nothing inherent in competetive team sports which violates any of these principles, IMO. Do you disagree? Edited August 4, 2011 by Annie

[John81]

This was an excellent post. Thank you so much for this!

Yes, a very good post.

We had missionaries speaking at our church recently and they pointed out one of the most difficult things about trying to reach Muslims is because of what they have seen of American Christians. One of the main things that comes up often is how immodest Christian women are. They see no value in a religion that it's own adherents fail to abide by.

[John81]

So, in high school, the boys can get fit and do exercises, while for 'religious' reasons it doesn't matter if girls stay unfit, and become obese, through lack of exercise?

I wonder what sort of pr or advertisement this brings to Christian testimony?

Why does a girl, or boy for that matter, have to participate in school sports in order to be fit? Some of the fittest never participate in school sports.

[farouk]

I'm not sure those are the questions we should be asking. I do things all the time (and teach my girls to do things) that are not directly related to loving husband and children, or following the other admonitions above directly. For example, my daughter will be taking Algebra I from me this year. Algebra I has nothing to do with any of the above concepts from Scripture. We swim just about every day in the summer. (We're fortunate enough to have a large lake on our property.) Swimming in the lake doesn't teach any of these things, either. Neither does singing in the choir, playing the violin, or many other things our family (girls) do on a weekly basis. So, are these activities off limits, because they do not teach these concepts directly?

Let's use your criteria to evaluate whether a girl should learn to play the violin:
"So we must ask the question, does [playing the violin] teach young women to love their husbands? Does it teach them to love their children? Does it teach them to be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, and obedient to their own husbands? This is what we must ask. What is right with women playing [the violin]? What does the Bible teach women to do and demonstrate and does this display that practically?"

I'd have to answer your questions in this way: Knowing how to play the violin doesn't teach young women to love husbands or children. It doesn't teach them to be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good and obedient to their own husbands. The Bible doesn't say anything about young women playing violins. Therefore (according to your reasoning), no girl should ever learn to play a violin.

Here's an alternative approach (one which I think makes more sense in this case): I should be teaching my daughters that whatever they do--swim in the lake, play the violin, sing in the choir, work an algebra problem, climb a tree--should be done in a way that would not trespass against these admonitions. I am certainly seeking to instill these values in my girls' lives; I want these ideals to permeate their very beings, so that whatever they are doing they do with modesty, sobriety, etc., demonstrating the kind of love the Bible teaches. When they are on the soccer field, they comport themselves with modesty (not calling attention to themselves) and sobriety (self control and good sense) and shamefacedness (reverence for God and respect for others). They don't "showboat" (a violation of modesty and shamefacedness); they don't dress immodestly (violating chastity); and they don't lose their meek demeanor. They help those who fall down--teammate and opponent alike--by giving them a hand up (demonstrating biblical love). There is nothing inherent in competetive team sports which violates any of these principles, IMO. Do you disagree?

Annie:

Another excellent post.

One could say, for example: Sports help teamwork; missionaries and church leaders need to get along with people and work with them, so this supposedly proves that all missionaries should do sports. (Logically, this is defective; it doesn't prove that all sportspeople are effective team workers, but neither does it prove that sports are bad or useless.)

[Covenanter]

So, in high school, the boys can get fit and do exercises, while for 'religious' reasons it doesn't matter if girls stay unfit, and become obese, through lack of exercise?

I wonder what sort of pr or advertisement this brings to Christian testimony?

There is plenty of time for our children to grow up without imposing adult rules on their play. Jesus did not rebuke the children for their play, but rebuked this generation for behaving like children: Luk 7:32 They are like unto children sitting in the marketplace, and calling one to another, and saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned to you, and ye have not wept.

Locally many Muslim girls have the strict dress code enforced. It's sad to see them playing football with full length skirts, though that can be effective in goal

Cherie Blair did a great disservice to her sex by supporting a man-led case for a girl in a Muslim school to wear the jilbab (long dress) rather than the traditional school uniform of shalwah-chemise, which is the very practical & modest baggy trousers & long shirt. Edited August 5, 2011 by Covenanter

[Salyan]

Locally many Muslim girls have the strict dress code enforced. It's sad to see them playing football with full length skirts, though that can be effective in goal

Shhh! Don't let on about the advantages of wearing skirts while playing defence! That's supposed to be a secret... ;)

[farouk]

Why does a girl, or boy for that matter, have to participate in school sports in order to be fit? Some of the fittest never participate in school sports.

I'm not sure where this argument leads. That less emphasis should be put on sports in school? And for 'religious' reasons? (Just trying to understand; but I guess I'm obtuse.) Blessings.

[John81]

I'm not sure where this argument leads. That less emphasis should be put on sports in school? And for 'religious' reasons? (Just trying to understand; but I guess I'm obtuse.) Blessings.

No, you are not being obtuse, you are being what you most often are; attempting to change the topic at hand, attempting to say others say things not said, and then avoiding the points against such.

School sports are not necessary for a boy or girl to be fit and not be obese. That's pretty simple.

As many have pointed out already, if one is dressed immodestly for a sport they are not presenting a proper Christian testimony, they are violating the Word of God.

Whatever the issue facing anyone, whether male or female, if any point violates the Word of God, a Christian should not be involved. There doesn't have to be 10 clear violations before such is binding for the Christian, yet for some reason many modern Christians seem to think that unless there are so many reasons why they should or shouldn't do something, they can ignore it and do as they please.

Christians, true followers of Christ, are called to a high calling with high standards. Whatever "sacrifice" of things of this world we make it is exceedingly tiny compared to the high cost Christ paid to redeem us.

[farouk]

I wholeheartedly agree about the cost of the believer's redemption. This is something I regularly mention in my own prayers, so I certainly agree there.

Re. the sports thing, I'm not sure I see the idea that all sports for women mean immodesty. (But if there is concern there, I guess they can always wear pants; but what do I know?)