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How strongly would you try to dissuade a 17-year old from getting an eyebrow barbell?


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To clarify, I was talking about the culture of self-mutilation as just one example of a culture my son might want to identify with: the guys that wear studs, starting with small ones, and gradually placing larger and larger ones in to make the hole bigger...grotesque and pointless.

I personally think a guy wearing earrings is a lot different than a girl wanting double piercings, because of the cultural context. I can't think of a single reason my son would come up with that wouldn't have to do with a culture that we'd want to avoid identification with. Earrings on guys aren't "beautiful" like they are on girls...Guys wear earrings for different reasons than girls do, and none of those reasons, as far as I can tell, are reflective of mature Christian manhood. I'm not knocking any guy who wears earrings; I'd be interested in hearing why you might think it's a good idea for a guy to wear earrings. Maybe I'm missing something. (?) What do you think?


Annie:

Well, those are interesting questions, I guess. I'm not sure I have all the answers.

First of all I suppose it would be 'easier' and in some sense more 'convenient' if no-one, that is, no-one from Christian families wore earrings.

But I don't think that Scripture would put anyone in that position.

In a specific context, even ear piercing for men is mentioned in a context that is not critical and even forms at least part of the symbolic background for Old Testament verses such as 'mine ears hast thou opened' (Hebrew: opened = digged, i.e., pierced), part of the symbolism of servanthood.

This is different from the contemporary practice of earring wearing.

But anyway, more specifically to your questions: 'a girl wanting double piercings'; I think we would both agree that this is rather widespread and, if mom agrees for an under-18 year old, can simply be regarded a pleasant thing to do.

For families it varies a huge deal, too, I think, re. boys. Like, a lot of boys that have them will get them because dad once did. Or more probably if mom thinks it looks cute (esp. if she has a few herself, so one pair for sons wouldn't seem excessive). For some boys, if they are shy, it can be a step to feeling a bit older and tougher, I guess; I don't know.

To some extent it's all a cultural thing and a regional thing, maybe, too.

'I'm not knocking any guy who wears earrings': I appreciate you saying this; I don't wear them any more in any case. (Moved on!) I guess at a certain age some youngsters haven't moved on, yet.

The last thing is that I'm not ind. baptist (though I agree with you guys a very great deal on a lot of stuff). Some regions (south, mid-west,) have many ind. baptists, I know. I'm not in the States, though.

Two cents.' (Hope a teeny bit of this is somehow coherent?)

Blessings.
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Annie:

Well, those are interesting questions, I guess. I'm not sure I have all the answers.....<<snip>>.......But anyway, more specifically to your questions: 'a girl wanting double piercings'; I think we would both agree that this is rather widespread and, if mom agrees for an under-18 year old, can simply be regarded a pleasant thing to do.

I suppose so...if the reasoning behind it is to enhance beauty.


For families it varies a huge deal, too, I think, re. boys. Like, a lot of boys that have them will get them because dad once did. Or more probably if mom thinks it looks cute (esp. if she has a few herself, so one pair for sons wouldn't seem excessive). For some boys, if they are shy, it can be a step to feeling a bit older and tougher, I guess; I don't know.

Maybe so...but usually kids aren't attracted to wearing certain styles because their parents once did; in fact, what their parents did at one time is generally avoided as "out of style." And, again, a question to consider and talk about is why the dad wanted to get his ears pierced; was he identifying himself with a certain culture that doesn't reflect biblical values? And, does he want to pass that on to his son as something that should be imitated?

Again, why would a mom think that earrings "look cute" on a small boy? Could it be for the same reasons that dressing up like a "li'l gangsta" looks cute?

As far as "looking tough," I'd be really hesitant to acknowledge, let alone suggest, that a kid should be relying on an artificial, external "crutch" to "help him feel tough." I'd never suggest to my daughter that she should feel beautiful because of something she's wearing. That borders on demeaning, IMO. Her confidence should rest in the One who created her; she is beautiful inside and out because she is God's creation, not because of what she is wearing. A guy who is relying on an earring to make him "feel tough" has misplaced his confidence, and could be setting himself up for a life of insecurity. As a parent, I wouldn't want to enable or encourage that way of thinking. I want to raise a boy who is spiritually strong and mentally tough because he's relying on God and feeding on His strength, not relying on some external, artificial "symbol of toughness."


To some extent it's all a cultural thing and a regional thing, maybe, too.

I've noticed that you keep bringing this statement into the discussion. What is your cultural background, if you don't mind my asking?


'I'm not knocking any guy who wears earrings': I appreciate you saying this; I don't wear them any more in any case. (Moved on!) I guess at a certain age some youngsters haven't moved on, yet.

I guess my point is that we should ask ourselves why the youngsters need to "be there" in the first place, and what we are communicating when we allow them to "be there." Must they make the same misjudgments and misplaced confidences that their parents made?


The last thing is that I'm not ind. baptist (though I agree with you guys a very great deal on a lot of stuff). Some regions (south, mid-west,) have many ind. baptists, I know. I'm not in the States, though.

I wasn't raised independent Baptist...more mainstream evangelical, actually. I don't think of this as an "independent Baptist" issue at all...I just try to have a reasonable, biblical, logical approach. Edited by Annie
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In a specific context, even ear piercing for men is mentioned in a context that is not critical and even forms at least part of the symbolic background for Old Testament verses such as 'mine ears hast thou opened' (Hebrew: opened = digged, i.e., pierced), part of the symbolism of servanthood.


Do you mind providing the context for this quote? What verse is it from?


The last thing is that I'm not ind. baptist (though I agree with you guys a very great deal on a lot of stuff). Some regions (south, mid-west,) have many ind. baptists, I know. I'm not in the States, though.


Just for the record, I'm Canadian too. And we have ind. baptists up here too. ;)
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Do you mind providing the context for this quote? What verse is it from?



Just for the record, I'm Canadian too. And we have ind. baptists up here too. ;)


salyan:

Psalm 40.6. Apparently the Hebrew word is karah, digged, that is, pierced. The background ref. is to the bondservant who when offered freedom, chooses to serve His master willingly and permanently. Cf. Philippians 2 also. This preaches well. It's all rather symbolic, of course.
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Annie:

Part of what I meant was, I guess, sometimes it's the mom that is actively willing to go along with the request.

What I meant about the culture thing, I guess, also, was that in some very conservative families from very conservative churches (God bless them all) the parent in question might instinctively be hostile to any jewelry innovation. Fine. As long as it's understood also that in some families, for reasons little to do with theology, the parent might instinctively be attuned slightly differently.

Me, I'm north of the US (salyan is, too, but keeps her distance ... :) ), we are neither very rich nor very poor, if this is what you wanted to know.


I don't have all the answers. Just wondering what folks think.

Blessings.

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Annie:

Part of what I meant was, I guess, sometimes it's the mom that is actively willing to go along with the request.

What I meant about the culture thing, I guess, also, was that in some very conservative families from very conservative churches (God bless them all) the parent in question might instinctively be hostile to any jewelry innovation. Fine. As long as it's understood also that in some families, for reasons little to do with theology, the parent might instinctively be attuned slightly differently.

Me, I'm north of the US (salyan is, too, but keeps her distance ... :) ), we are neither very rich nor very poor, if this is what you wanted to know.


I don't have all the answers. Just wondering what folks think.

Blessings.

Okay, gotcha...thanks. I guess I don't think of myself as extremely conservative about these issues...I'm just a mom thinking through things like anyone else is. To me, the reasoning behind something--the thinking--is the important issue. Edited by Annie
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Okay, gotcha...thanks. I guess I don't think of myself as extremely conservative about these issues...I'm just a mom thinking through things like anyone else is. To me, the reasoning behind something--the thinking--is the important issue.


Annie:

You're not? :)

You don't say. :coolsmiley:

(Just kidding.)

Actually I appreciate your reflective posts, that seem to have quite a bit of analysis behind them, sometimes.

This whole thing seems more or less to be part of a continuum of issues / non-issues at a certain age, with a few variations in some families, maybe. Football, computer games, driving lessons, diet coke instead of the sugared variety, which evening to schedule the regular haircut, extra math, church youth group night, guitar lessons, care not to disturb notes under the fridge magnet, too much TV, too much internet, the earrings. Etc. (I'm sure lots of ppl would agree this is not just making things up...)

If it all makes any sense?

Blessings. Edited by farouk
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Okay, I'm gonna have to disagree with you again (no... really? :P:lol:)

Although I understand the background of a servant having his ears pierced when choosing to stay with a master, I don't think that the context and intent of Ps. 40:6 has anything to do with the literal application of that bit of history. Ps. 40 is the cry of a man who is seeking the Lord with his whole heart - calling for God's help and seeking to serve Him in an acceptable manner. If I needed to put an application to the 'ears being opened,' I would say (and I could be wrong) that it is referring to God having given the psalmist understanding of spiritual truth. We know that God shuts eyes & ears & hearts [Ex. 9:12; Is. 6:10,44:18) - this would be the same idea in the opposite. (Oh, and I checked Phil. 2 - can't really see how that relates...?) To reference it as a non-critical reference to ear-piercing for men is to take the verse completely out of context, IMO.

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Okay, I'm gonna have to disagree with you again (no... really? :P:lol:)

Although I understand the background of a servant having his ears pierced when choosing to stay with a master, I don't think that the context and intent of Ps. 40:6 has anything to do with the literal application of that bit of history. Ps. 40 is the cry of a man who is seeking the Lord with his whole heart - calling for God's help and seeking to serve Him in an acceptable manner. If I needed to put an application to the 'ears being opened,' I would say (and I could be wrong) that it is referring to God having given the psalmist understanding of spiritual truth. We know that God shuts eyes & ears & hearts [Ex. 9:12; Is. 6:10,44:18) - this would be the same idea in the opposite. (Oh, and I checked Phil. 2 - can't really see how that relates...?) To reference it as a non-critical reference to ear-piercing for men is to take the verse completely out of context, IMO.


salyan:

Like I said, it's symbolic. A symbolic application of the literal practice for bondservants. The passages are there in the Old Testament.

The verse in Philippians 2 I was referring to is 'took upon Him the form of a servant', that is, not a 9 - 5 hired servant, but a bondservant. I'm not saying it's literal, but it's symbolic.

Re. Psalm 40, the word there, karah in Hebrew, means digged.


Spurgeon's Treasury of David, for Psalm 40:

'Verse 6-7. In these words an allusion is made to a custom of the Jews to bore the ears of such as were to be their perpetual servants, and to enrol their names in a book, or make some instrument of the covenant. "Sacrifices and burnt offerings thou wouldst not have;" but because I am thy vowed servant, bored with an awl, and enrolled in thy book, I said, Lo, I come; I delight to do thy will, O my God. '

Conservative commentators and hymn-writers admit the symbolism of ear piercing for the bondservant. There is little room for doubt at all.


Blessings.
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I'm sorry, I thought we were discussing the practical question of piercings. Why are you using passages you believe to be symbolic to answer a literal question? :icon_confused:

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I'm sorry, I thought we were discussing the practical question of piercings. Why are you using passages you believe to be symbolic to answer a literal question? :icon_confused:


salyan:

Okay so, clarification.

This is what I said to Annie:

"Annie:

Well, those are interesting questions, I guess. I'm not sure I have all the answers.

First of all I suppose it would be 'easier' and in some sense more 'convenient' if no-one, that is, no-one from Christian families wore earrings.

But I don't think that Scripture would put anyone in that position.

In a specific context, even ear piercing for men is mentioned in a context that is not critical and even forms at least part of the symbolic background for Old Testament verses such as 'mine ears hast thou opened' (Hebrew: opened = digged, i.e., pierced), part of the symbolism of servanthood.

This is different from the contemporary practice of earring wearing."

...................

And then you asked me about the ref.

Does this help?

Blessings.
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I really don't think the "gender distinction" argument holds much water. (There might have been a time when it did, though.)


Annie:

I agree.

Whether it's favoured or greatly disfavoured, the mall kiosk trip for putting in studs seems to be a widespread practice for young men (and often their moms, who might sign for them). Plenty of sports-playing, MacDonalds hamburger-eating (and church youth group attending?) young men have them, and, whatever ppl think, it's not unusual. So I agree.

(Not sure how this fits in with the overall direction of the thread — whatever this is.)

Blessings.
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It's no wonder so much of Christianity today is just like the world and so many in the world don't see Christ when they look at professing Christians.

John81;

I just mentioned attending a church youth group; so do you mean you wouldn't want them to attend?
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It's no wonder so much of Christianity today is just like the world and so many in the world don't see Christ when they look at professing Christians.

:amen:

"And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues." (Revelation 18:4)

"Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you." (2 Corinthians 6:17
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