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Origins of Pre-Trib Rapture Teaching


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I do have this information. I don't know how long it's been going on before Jefferson wrote this:

It is between fifty and sixty years since I read the Apocalypse, and I then considered it merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy, nor capable of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly dreams.... what has no meaning admits no explanation.


-- Thomas Jefferson, to Alexander Smyth, January 17, 1825

Of course it doesn't explain if people believed in rapture or not.
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Now Bro. Jerry,
You must have missed my last post. In reference to your most recent comment:

So not finding something, means nothing, especially being at the KJ Bible teaches pretrib rapture, that ought to be enough for anyone, after all its of God, those you are searching for are written my mere men. The KJ Bible and Jesus is enough.


These are completely subjective comments, that is to say, they are subject to your particular view. Anyone can say, "This is the truth because I found it in the KJ Bible!" and go on to tell you that Judas hanged himself and that all should go and do likewise! :eek

My studies have been strictly from the KJ Bible and I have come up with some differences in timing then you have. The KJ Bible and the words of Jesus are "good enough for me," but when I read them I see something different. This is not odd, we all have some issue we see differently in the same KJ Bible.

That goes to friend Candlelight also. The verses you listed I listed above. Have you read them in the context in which I gave them? I know it is a fearful thing to consider that perhaps we are not going out before the beignning of the trib, but even the teachings I have received in many IFB churches I have both been a member of and ministered in, have been inconsistent with the following:

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him,

2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

According to the Apostle Paul, the coming of our Lord and our gathering together unto him will not happen until there are two things:
1. The Great Falling away.
2. That man of sin (antichrist) be revealed.

WE WILL SEE THESE TWO THINGS, IT IS AN ABSOLUTE, PAUL SAID SO.

Why then do so many of my Christian friends insist, "We'll never see the antichrist, we're going out before that!" The KJ Bible has made it clear. So, do some study...

...when will the man of sin be revealed (exposed)? Look it up. I really want you to do so.

Bro. Ben
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I know it is a fearful thing to consider that perhaps we are not going out before the beignning of the trib, but even the teachings I have received in many IFB churches I have both been a member of and ministered in, have been inconsistent with the following:

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him,

2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

According to the Apostle Paul, the coming of our Lord and our gathering together unto him will not happen until there are two things:
1. The Great Falling away.
2. That man of sin (antichrist) be revealed.

WE WILL SEE THESE TWO THINGS, IT IS AN ABSOLUTE, PAUL SAID SO.

Why then do so many of my Christian friends insist, "We'll never see the antichrist, we're going out before that!" The KJ Bible has made it clear. So, do some study...

...when will the man of sin be revealed (exposed)? Look it up. I really want you to do so.



Bother Ben, "the day of Christ" is not the rapture, it is the Judgement of the world, the tribulation. Search "the day of the Lord" in the book of Isaiah. These Christians in 2 Th were being told by someone that they were in the tribulation period then and they were worried about it. Paul is letting them know that was not the case. He is telling them that since the Anti-christ was not revealed they certainly were not in the tribulation`as this person or group of persons was saying. Additionally, in verse 13 there is a strong implication that Christians will not go through the trib when you read it with the previous verses in context. Verse 13 is given as a contrast to verses 10-12.
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[quote="PreacherBen"]Now Bro. Jerry,
You must have missed my last post. In reference to your most recent comment:

[quote]So not finding something, means nothing, [b]especially being at the KJ Bible teaches pretrib rapture[/b], that ought to be enough for anyone, [b]after all its of God[/b], those you are searching for are written my mere men. The KJ Bible and Jesus is enough.[/quote]

These are completely subjective comments, that is to say, they are subject to your particular view. Anyone can say, "This is the truth because I found it in the KJ Bible!" and go on to tell you that Judas hanged himself and that all should go and do likewise! :eek

My studies have been [u]strictly from the KJ Bible [/u]and I have come up with some differences in timing then you have. The KJ Bible and the words of Jesus are "good enough for me," but when I read them I see something different. This is not odd, we all have some issue we see differently in the same KJ Bible.

That goes to friend Candlelight also. The verses you listed I listed above. Have you read them in the context in which I gave them? I know it is a fearful thing to consider that perhaps we are not going out before the beignning of the trib, but even the teachings I have received in many IFB churches I have both been a member of and ministered in, have been inconsistent with the following:

[color=#0000FF]2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, [b]by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him[/b],

2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

2Th 2:3 [u][b][size=150]Let no man deceive you by any means[/size][/b][/u]: for [u][that day shall not come], except[/u] [b]there come a falling away [size=150]first[/size][/b], [u]and[/u] [b]that man of sin be revealed[/b], the son of perdition;[/color]

According to the Apostle Paul, the coming of our Lord and our gathering together unto him will not happen until there are two things:
1. The Great Falling away.
2. That man of sin (antichrist) be revealed.

[u][b]WE WILL SEE THESE TWO THINGS, IT IS AN ABSOLUTE, PAUL SAID SO.[/b][/u]

Why then do so many of my Christian friends insist, "We'll never see the antichrist, we're going out before that!" The KJ Bible has made it clear. So, do some study...

...when will the man of sin be revealed (exposed)? Look it up. I really want you to do so.

Bro. Ben[/quote]

Bro. Ben, No, I did not miss your post.

Thanks, but I don't need to look it up, I've studied it out many times, and those who claim that the pre-trib rapture is just a modem teaching does not cause me to have any doubt, for that it the only defense they have, for their way is not taught in the Bible.

I don't usually show anyone my sermons outlines, I feel they are between me and God and the congregation God helped me to prepare them for. Plus I'm surely not one of those educated pastors who attended a Bible school and taught how to put a sermon outline together. All of my studies have been in attending church for a number of years, plus the studying I've done on my own here at home. Why keep them keep them? Hopeful my daughter, grandchildren, or maybe their children might get something out of them one day, and I'm surely not speaking about money, but spiritual.

But in this case I will post an old one, that deals with this subject, and I rightly don't feel like going thru the Bible at the present moment to put anything together. I don't know if it will help you, you seem to already have your mind made up, but hopefully it will help some that you might confuse, and that is why I'm putting it here.



Jesus? & His 2 Comings

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18


13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

Introduction:

1. Jesus? second coming is in two phases, we all get a bit confused about this at times-

A. At first Jesus comes back for His own, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 & 1 Corinthians 15:51-57-

B. Later on Jesus comes back with His own to take His rightful place on David?s throne, Isaiah 9:7 page 721-

C. The first phase of His coming is commonly called ?The Rapture of the Church?-

1. While the 2nd phase is commonly called the ?Revelations?-


The verses we just read is speaking about when Jesus? comes in the air for his own, we commonly refer to as the rapture-

We could also read about it in 1 Corinthians 15:51-57, page 1227-

2. While reading thru the Bible there seems to be some contradictions, that can only be understood if one understands the 2 phases of Jesus? coming-

For instance, Revelations 16:15 reads:

?Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepth his garments, least he walk naked, and they see his shame.?

Them in Revelations 1:7 we find:

?Behold, He cometh with the clouds; and every eye shall see Him, and they also which pierced Him and all kindards shall wail because of Him, Even so, Amen.?

A. Revelations 16:15 ?Behold I come as a thief: 1st Phase: Jesus? comes for His own-

B. Revelations 1:7 ?every eye shall see Him: 2nd phase, Jesus comes with His own-

Another seemingly contradiction is

1 Thessalonians 3:13

?To this end He may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.?

&

1 Thessalonians 4:16

?For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God; and the dead in Christ shall first rise: Them we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.?

C. It is impossible for Christ to come with His saints unless He firs comes for His saints-

{1st phase of His coming: He comes for His saints}


{In the 2nd phase: He is coming with His saints}

{the 1st phase he comes to reward His saints}

In the 2nd phase He comes to rule}


{in the 1st phase He comes before the tribulation}

{in the 2nd phase He comes after the tribulations}


{in the 1st phase He delivers us from the tribulations}

{in the 2nd phase He puts an end to the tribulation}


{in the 2nd phase He comes as a bridegroom for His bride}

{in the 2nd phase He comes as King of Kings, Lord of Lords}


In the first phase He comes to raise the dead in Christ}

{in the 2nd phase He comes to destroy the anti-christ}


3. Let us take notice of Hebrews 9:28

?So Christ once offer to bear the sins of many, and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin unto salvation.?

A. Notice it say, ?unto them that look?-

1. Believers will see Christ-

2. Unbelievers will not see Christ-

4. When are the tribulations?

A. Thru the book of revelations it does not give a time for the ?rapture of the church? so most people think this, the rapture take place right before the tribulations-

B. In Revelations 1:19 Jesus tells John to write: ?Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter.?

1. ??the things which I hast seen?? refers to the vision he saw in Revelations 1

2. ??the things which are?? seem to be a reference to Revelations 2&3, which many believe to mean the church age. When the church age is finished Christ will take the church out of the world-

3. ??the thing which shall be hereafter??, after the church age which he spoke of in Revelations 2&3-

5. But in Revelations 4:1 the heaven open up.

?After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must happen hereafter.?

A. The heavens opens, the church goes up, the Rapture, the things that must happen hereafter, the tribulations-

B. Now from this time Revelations 4:1 thru Revelations 19:11 the church is not mentioned in the tribulations period, but in Revelations 19:11 the church comes back with Christ-

Let us look at something else.

Revelations 3:10 ?Because I have kept thy word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.?

A. The word temptation means: adversity, affliction, trouble, which most people seem to think refers to the ?Tribulation Period?-

Now let us look at Thessalonians 2:1

?Now we beech you brother, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,?

?by our gathering unto Him?? is referring to the rapture of the church-


And verse 2 continues:

?That ye not soon be shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither in spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that day of Christ is at hand.?


That day of Christ, is connected with judgment-

By letter, there had been a false letter sent to Thessalonica with Paul?s signature on it telling them they were already in the period of God?s judgment, the Tribulation period-

Paul assures them this will not come till after the rapture-







Now look at Thessalonians 2:7&8

?For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only He who letteth will let, until He be taken out of the way. And them shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of Him mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming.

Mystery of iniquity is the Anti-Christ-

*Mystery of righteousness in Jesus-

The word letteth means hindering the revelations of the Anti-Christ-

What is hindering the Anti-Christ? The church, the Holy Spirit, what be in ever believer-

Thus the presence of the Church, the believers, the Spirit abiding prevents the Anti-Christ-

So, it seems the Anti-Christ will not enter in until the Church is taken out-

Lets look at Revelations 6:2

?And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow, and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.?

Thus the Anti-Christ enter in & the Tribulation Period, after the church, believers, & the holy Spirit is in heaven with the Lord-

?Looking for that blessed hope, and the appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ.? Titus 2:1

Would the Tribulation period be a ?blessed hope? for the believers?

We, believers, are offered a blessed hope, being on earth with the Anti-Christ ruling would not be a blessed hope.

Matthew 24:8 ?All these are the beginning of sorrows.?

The Tribulation Period coming to earth is the beginning of sorrow, not a blessed hope, Jesus? brother?s & sister?s have that blessed hope, we will not endure the beginning of sorrows-











When The Saints Go Marching In

I?m just a weary pilgrim, plodding thru this world of sin; Getting ready for that city, when the saints go marching in, When the saints go marching in, when the saints go marching in, Lord I want to be in that number, When the saints go marching in.


Yes its true, those who be in that number, have that blessed hope, they will not be in that number that face the beginning of sorrows, the Tribulation period-

But they have that blessed hope-

Each person makes their own choice, which number they want to be with-

Which is it for you, That Blessed hope, or the beginning or sorrows?


1:37 PM, Saturday, April 8, 2006

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Bother Ben, "the day of Christ" is not the rapture, it is the Judgement of the world, the tribulation. Search "the day of the Lord" in the book of Isaiah. These Christians in 2 Th were being told by someone that they were in the tribulation period then and they were worried about it. Paul is letting them know that was not the case. He is telling them that since the Anti-christ was not revealed they certainly were not in the tribulation`as this person or group of persons was saying. Additionally, in verse 13 there is a strong implication that Christians will not go through the trib when you read it with the previous verses in context. Verse 13 is given as a contrast to verses 10-12.



:goodpost::amen: Seth!!
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Bro. Ben, No, I did not miss your post.

Thanks, but I don't need to look it up, I've studied it out many times, and those who claim that the pre-trib rapture is just a modem teaching does not cause me to have any doubt, for that it the only defense they have, for their way is not taught in the Bible.

I don't usually show anyone my sermons outlines, I feel they are between me and God and the congregation God helped me to prepare them for. Plus I'm surely not one of those educated pastors who attended a Bible school and taught how to put a sermon outline together. All of my studies have been in attending church for a number of years, plus the studying I've done on my own here at home. Why keep them keep them? Hopeful my daughter, grandchildren, or maybe their children might get something out of them one day, and I'm surely not speaking about money, but spiritual.

But in this case I will post an old one, that deals with this subject, and I rightly don't feel like going thru the Bible at the present moment to put anything together. I don't know if it will help you, you seem to already have your mind made up, but hopefully it will help some that you might confuse, and that is why I'm putting it here.



Jesus? & His 2 Comings

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18


13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

Introduction:

1. Jesus? second coming is in two phases, we all get a bit confused about this at times-

A. At first Jesus comes back for His own, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 & 1 Corinthians 15:51-57-

B. Later on Jesus comes back with His own to take His rightful place on David?s throne, Isaiah 9:7 page 721-

C. The first phase of His coming is commonly called ?The Rapture of the Church?-

1. While the 2nd phase is commonly called the ?Revelations?-


The verses we just read is speaking about when Jesus? comes in the air for his own, we commonly refer to as the rapture-

We could also read about it in 1 Corinthians 15:51-57, page 1227-

2. While reading thru the Bible there seems to be some contradictions, that can only be understood if one understands the 2 phases of Jesus? coming-

For instance, Revelations 16:15 reads:

?Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepth his garments, least he walk naked, and they see his shame.?

Them in Revelations 1:7 we find:

?Behold, He cometh with the clouds; and every eye shall see Him, and they also which pierced Him and all kindards shall wail because of Him, Even so, Amen.?

A. Revelations 16:15 ?Behold I come as a thief: 1st Phase: Jesus? comes for His own-

B. Revelations 1:7 ?every eye shall see Him: 2nd phase, Jesus comes with His own-

Another seemingly contradiction is

1 Thessalonians 3:13

?To this end He may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.?

&

1 Thessalonians 4:16

?For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God; and the dead in Christ shall first rise: Them we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.?

C. It is impossible for Christ to come with His saints unless He firs comes for His saints-

{1st phase of His coming: He comes for His saints}


{In the 2nd phase: He is coming with His saints}

{the 1st phase he comes to reward His saints}

In the 2nd phase He comes to rule}


{in the 1st phase He comes before the tribulation}

{in the 2nd phase He comes after the tribulations}


{in the 1st phase He delivers us from the tribulations}

{in the 2nd phase He puts an end to the tribulation}


{in the 2nd phase He comes as a bridegroom for His bride}

{in the 2nd phase He comes as King of Kings, Lord of Lords}


In the first phase He comes to raise the dead in Christ}

{in the 2nd phase He comes to destroy the anti-christ}


3. Let us take notice of Hebrews 9:28

?So Christ once offer to bear the sins of many, and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin unto salvation.?

A. Notice it say, ?unto them that look?-

1. Believers will see Christ-

2. Unbelievers will not see Christ-

4. When are the tribulations?

A. Thru the book of revelations it does not give a time for the ?rapture of the church? so most people think this, the rapture take place right before the tribulations-

B. In Revelations 1:19 Jesus tells John to write: ?Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter.?

1. ??the things which I hast seen?? refers to the vision he saw in Revelations 1

2. ??the things which are?? seem to be a reference to Revelations 2&3, which many believe to mean the church age. When the church age is finished Christ will take the church out of the world-

3. ??the thing which shall be hereafter??, after the church age which he spoke of in Revelations 2&3-

5. But in Revelations 4:1 the heaven open up.

?After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must happen hereafter.?

A. The heavens opens, the church goes up, the Rapture, the things that must happen hereafter, the tribulations-

B. Now from this time Revelations 4:1 thru Revelations 19:11 the church is not mentioned in the tribulations period, but in Revelations 19:11 the church comes back with Christ-

Let us look at something else.

Revelations 3:10 ?Because I have kept thy word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.?

A. The word temptation means: adversity, affliction, trouble, which most people seem to think refers to the ?Tribulation Period?-

Now let us look at Thessalonians 2:1

?Now we beech you brother, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,?

?by our gathering unto Him?? is referring to the rapture of the church-


And verse 2 continues:

?That ye not soon be shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither in spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that day of Christ is at hand.?


That day of Christ, is connected with judgment-

By letter, there had been a false letter sent to Thessalonica with Paul?s signature on it telling them they were already in the period of God?s judgment, the Tribulation period-

Paul assures them this will not come till after the rapture-







Now look at Thessalonians 2:7&8

?For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only He who letteth will let, until He be taken out of the way. And them shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of Him mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming.

Mystery of iniquity is the Anti-Christ-

*Mystery of righteousness in Jesus-

The word letteth means hindering the revelations of the Anti-Christ-

What is hindering the Anti-Christ? The church, the Holy Spirit, what be in ever believer-

Thus the presence of the Church, the believers, the Spirit abiding prevents the Anti-Christ-

So, it seems the Anti-Christ will not enter in until the Church is taken out-

Lets look at Revelations 6:2

?And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow, and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.?

Thus the Anti-Christ enter in & the Tribulation Period, after the church, believers, & the holy Spirit is in heaven with the Lord-

?Looking for that blessed hope, and the appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ.? Titus 2:1

Would the Tribulation period be a ?blessed hope? for the believers?

We, believers, are offered a blessed hope, being on earth with the Anti-Christ ruling would not be a blessed hope.

Matthew 24:8 ?All these are the beginning of sorrows.?

The Tribulation Period coming to earth is the beginning of sorrow, not a blessed hope, Jesus? brother?s & sister?s have that blessed hope, we will not endure the beginning of sorrows-











When The Saints Go Marching In

I?m just a weary pilgrim, plodding thru this world of sin; Getting ready for that city, when the saints go marching in, When the saints go marching in, when the saints go marching in, Lord I want to be in that number, When the saints go marching in.


Yes its true, those who be in that number, have that blessed hope, they will not be in that number that face the beginning of sorrows, the Tribulation period-

But they have that blessed hope-

Each person makes their own choice, which number they want to be with-

Which is it for you, That Blessed hope, or the beginning or sorrows?


1:37 PM, Saturday, April 8, 2006



YES!!! :amen::goodpost: Pastor Jerry!! The KJV 1611 AV is all we need! Absolutely! :thumb
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[marquee]May the Lord bless all of you with a wonderful Christmas![/marquee]
clr-parrot.gif


parrots? that is NOT very nice of you, Bro. Ben! :-S

I have not found the information that you requested but I did find a rather interesting article about pre-millenialism here http://biblebelievers.com/misc_periodic ... s_002.html

BTw - there are some religions teaching that the rapture has already happened! :loco
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In my studies I am always looking for resources for end times events. I have been looking for some writings regarding Pre-Trib rapture prior to the early 1800's. If any of you have any articles or reference to any commentary written regarding Pre-Trib rapture prior to the 1800's I would love a link, or name of a book. I realize some will say the Bible is where it is found so I thought I'd go ahead and say, o.k. to that, but please show me where some men of God in times past (prior to the 1800's) have made some record of comment thereto.

Thanks,
Bro. Ben



David Cloud wrote this: Morgan Edwards (1722-1795) was one of the most influential Baptist preachers of his time. In 1795 the Minutes of the Philadelphia Association carried a notice of his death. He was the founder of Brown University, the most influential Baptist school of that day. The Baptist Encyclopedia says of him: "Morgan Edwards was a man of refined manners, and shone to peculiar advantage in good society." It further states, "His attachment to Baptist principles was intense, and no man since the days of the Apostles ever showed greater love, or made more costly sacrifices for them than he did."

If Morgan Edwards wrote a book in 1742-44, teaching the Pre-Trib Rapture, then many people must have read it. If he was one of the most prominent Baptists in America, then he must not have been considered an heretic by his peers. No doubt there must have been other preachers who read the same Bible that Edwards did, and preached the same truth. :amen:
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Thanks for the lead, dt. I'll look into the writings of Edwards. I want to reiterate (sp?) I do not, nor will I go one way or the other just because of someone's writings, I strictly base my conclusions on scripture alone, but it is very interesting to read what men of God have found in the scriptures and why they feel their take on an issue is correct.

Bro. Ben

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Hey Ben,

I gave you a 2nd Century quote, and no comment from you so far??? Anything older than that is the pen of Paul.

Are you really looking or are you only looking for confirmation of what youi have decided is the truth???

I have more, but I figured I would wait to see if you wanted to talk about it first. So far, ..... :roll

God bless,

Calvary

As a P.S
to the 2 Thess. passage you just mentioned


Because Paul, in 2 Thessalonians, said the Antichrist would be revealed before the Day of the Christ, post and pre-wrath adherents frequently try to cite this passage as one that refutes the pre-trib rapture.

To quell the Thessalonian's misunderstanding that they had somehow entered the tribulation, Paul told them the Antichrist must first be revealed. By telling them they had no reason to panic, Paul is clearly disputing the idea that the Thessalonians could someday find themselves facing the tribulation hour.

I'm constantly being irked by Post-trib and pre-wrath folks' consistent, or better yet deliberate, failure to accept the simple fact that the pre-trib doctrine calls for a rapture and a second coming. Because they only glean the prophetic word for one event--the second coming--they're unable to recognize pre-trib rapture passages.

Of course, when you fuse the two advents together, you end up with verses that appear to contradict each other: 1 Thessalonians 5:9, "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ," and Revelation 13:7, "And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

Thomas Ice


God bless, again :smile

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Didn't have time to read this whole thread, but my :2cents is that the origin of pre-trib doctrine is Scripture and it has consistently been taught. Deviations however also have their origin in scripture wherein Paul was straightening out the deviations and errant teachings by the verses we all know which deal with the subject.

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