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    • By Jim_Alaska in Jim_Alaska's Sermons & Devotionals
         33
      Closed Communion
      James Foley
       
      I Corinthians 11:17-34: "Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's Supper. For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not. For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord's death till he come. Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another. And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come."

      INTRODUCTION

      Historic Baptists, true Baptists, have believed in and still believe in closed communion. Baptists impose upon themselves the same restrictions that they impose on others concerning the Lord’s Supper. Baptists have always insisted that it is the Lord’s Table, not theirs; and He alone has the right to say who shall sit at His table. No amount of so called brotherly love, or ecumenical spirit, should cause us to invite to His table those who have not complied with the requirements laid down plainly in His inspired Word. With respect to Bible doctrines we must always use the scripture as our guide and practice. For Baptists, two of the most important doctrines are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper. These are the only two doctrines we recognize as Church Ordinances. The Bible is very clear in teaching how these doctrines are to be practiced and by whom.

      We only have two ordinances that we must never compromise or we risk our very existence, they are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper.

      The moment we deviate from the precise method God has prescribed we have started down the slippery slope of error. True Baptists have held fast to the original doctrine of The Lord’s Supper from the time of Christ and the Apostles.

      Unfortunately, in this day of what the Bible describes as the age of luke warmness, Baptists are becoming careless in regard to strictly following the pattern laid out for us in Scripture. Many of our Bible colleges are graduating otherwise sincere, Godly and dedicated pastors and teachers who have not been taught the very strict, biblical requirements that surround the Lord’s Supper. Any Bible college that neglects to teach its students the differences surrounding Closed Communion, Close Communion and Open Communion is not simply short changing its students; it is also not equipping their students to carry on sound Bible traditions. The result is men of God and churches that fall into error. And as we will see, this is serious error.

      Should we as Baptists ignore the restrictions made by our Lord and Master? NO! When we hold to the restrictions placed upon the Lord’s Supper by our Master, we are defending the "faith which was once delivered to the saints" Jude 3.

      The Lord’s Supper is rigidly restricted and I will show this in the following facts:

      IT IS RESTRICTED AS TO PLACE

      A. I Corinthians 11:18 says, "When ye come together in the church." This does not mean the church building; they had none. In other words, when the church assembles. The supper is to be observed by the church, in church capacity. Again this does not mean the church house. Ekklesia, the Greek word for church, means assembly. "When ye come together in the church," is when the church assembles.

      B. When we say church we mean an assembly of properly baptized believers. Acts 2:41-42: "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers."

      The church is made up of saved people who are baptized by immersion. In the Bible, belief precedes baptism. That’s the Bible way.

      Acts 8:12-13, "But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done."

      When we say properly baptized, we mean immersed. No unbeliever should take the Lord’s supper, and no non-immersed believer should take the supper. Those who are sprinkled are not baptized and cannot receive the supper. The Greek word for baptize is baptizo, and it always means to immerse.

      "In every case where communion is referred to, or where it may possibly have been administered, the believers had been baptized Acts 2:42; 8:12; 8:38; 10:47; 6:14-15; 18:8; 20:7. Baptism comes before communion, just as repentance and faith precede baptism".

      C. The Lord’s Supper is for baptized believers in church capacity: "When ye come together in the church," again not a building, but the assembly of the properly baptized believers.

      D. The fact that the Lord’s Supper is a church ordinance, to be observed in church capacity, is pointed out by the fact that it is for those who have been immersed and added to the fellowship of the church.

      E. The Lord’s Supper is never spoken of in connection with individuals. When it is referred to, it is only referred to in reference to baptized believers in local church capacity I Cor. 11:20-26).

      I want to quote Dr. W.W. Hamilton,

      "The individual administration of the ordinance has no Bible warrant and is a relic of Romanism. The Lord’s Supper is a church ordinance, and anything which goes beyond or comes short of this fails for want of scriptural example or command".

      “The practice of taking a little communion kit to hospitals, nursing homes, etc. is unscriptural and does not follow the scriptural example.”

      IT IS RESTRICTED TO A UNITED CHURCH

      A. The Bible in I Cor. 11:18 is very strong in condemning divisions around the Lord’s table. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
      19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
      20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.

      There were no less than four divisions in the Corinthian church.
      I Cor. 1:12: "Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ."

      Because of these divisions, it was impossible for them to scripturally eat the Lord’s Supper. Division in the local church is reason to hold off observing the Lord’s Supper. But there are also other reasons to forego taking the Lord’s Supper. If there is gross sin in the membership we do not take it. Here is scriptural evidence for this: 1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us:
      8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
      10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

      B. At this point, I want to ask these questions: Are there not doctrinal divisions among the many denominations? Is it not our doctrinal differences that cause us to be separate religious bodies?

      IT IS RESTRICTED BY DOCTRINE

      A. Those in the early church at Jerusalem who partook "continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine" Acts 2:42. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

      B. Those that do not hold to apostolic truth are not to partake. This means there is to be discipline in the local body. How can you discipline those who do not belong to the local body? You can’t. The clear command of scripture is to withdraw fellowship from those who are not doctrinally sound.

      II Thes 3:6: "Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us."
      Rom. 16:17: "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them."
      To commune together means to have the same doctrine.
      II Thes. 2:15: "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."
      II John 10-11: "If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds."

      C. Some Baptists in our day have watered down this doctrine by practicing what they call “Close Communion.” By this they mean that they believe that members of another Baptist church may take communion with us because they are of the same beliefs. Once again, this is unscriptural.

      The welcome to the Lord's Table should not be extended beyond the discipline of the local church. When we take the Lord’s Supper there is supposed to be no gross sin among us and no divisions among us. We have no idea of the spiritual condition of another church’s members. If there is sin or division in the case of this other church’s members, we have no way of knowing it. We cannot discipline them because they are not members of our church. This is why we practice “Closed” communion, meaning it is restricted solely to our church membership. 
      So then, in closing I would like to reiterate the three different ideas concerning the Lord’s Supper and who is to take it. 
      Closed Communion = Only members of a single local church. 
      Close Communion = Members of like faith and order may partake. 
      Open Communion = If you claim to be a Christian, or simply attending the service, you may partake. 
      It is no small thing to attempt to change that which was implemented by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 
      Mt. 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. 
      Many of our Baptist churches have a real need to consider the gravity of the act of observing The Lord’s Supper. It is not a light thing that is to be taken casually or without regard to the spiritual condition of ourselves or our church.
      1Co. 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

       28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

       29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

       30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

Which wine is the good wine?


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Happy Christian: I say look to the Luna eater than look above. It's a figure of speech. But if it troubles you, I will forego. And you comment that Jesus would not give people alcohol makes little sense. It's like saying "God wouldn't create something that ..." when we know he created everything.

And I don't know who've you banned in the past and I don't appreciate being threatened. How do I get the power to ban. We could band together and do some serious banning! Give me the power. War Eagle! (the universal salutation for those that follow Auburn - so you're not bewildered). I want to ban.



I know what War Eagle is, thank you. Yes, it does trouble me. Thank you for foregoing - figures of speech in which God is replaced by the moon are not scriptural.

Jesus would give people alcohol to get them drunk (which is what I specifically said)? Oh, then Habbakuk 2:15 is a contradiction. Yes, God created grapes with alcohol content in them...but it is man that turned it into something on which a person can get drunk.

Ah, I didn't threaten you. I warned you. And my warnings are always promises. :coolsmiley:
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I know what War Eagle is, thank you. Yes, it does trouble me. Thank you for foregoing - figures of speech in which God is replaced by the moon are not scriptural.

Jesus would give people alcohol to get them drunk (which is what I specifically said)? Oh, then Habbakuk 2:15 is a contradiction. Yes, God created grapes with alcohol content in them...but it is man that turned it into something on which a person can get drunk.

Ah, I didn't threaten you. I warned you. And my warnings are always promises. :coolsmiley:


God created alcohol. He created everything. And I want the power to ban. It is important that I receive the power, to protect them. I want to ban. What must I do to be ordained with the power? I want to ban. War Eagle! Hey!
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God created alcohol. He created everything. And I want the power to ban. It is important that I receive the power, to protect them. I want to ban. What must I do to be ordained with the power? I want to ban. War Eagle! Hey!


I know what God created.

Sorry, but you don't qualify for the power...mockery isn't becoming of a Christian who is supposed to be having a serious discussion.

Dennnis - :D I've always thought CS actually meant "whining!" :biggrin:
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God created alcohol. He created everything. And I want the power to ban. It is important that I receive the power, to protect them. I want to ban. What must I do to be ordained with the power? I want to ban. War Eagle! Hey!

God did not create alcohol. Alcohol is the result of the process of decay. Try again.
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God did not create alcohol. Alcohol is the result of the process of decay. Try again.


Assuming that is how alcohol is made, who do you think created the process of decay? You need to pray. Have you ever accepted Christ as your lord and saviour? You too can be saved. Pm me if you would like to know more about salvation.
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The process of decay is a result of the fall of man. God did not create decay.

All that God created, He created in six days. (Ex. 20:11) At the end of those six days, God saw all that He had created and it was very good. (Gen. 1:31) And the seventh day, God rested from His work. (Gen. 2:2)

I don't need to PM anyone about my Salvation. I was saved thirty years ago when I trusted Christ and what He accomplished for me through His death, burial and resurrection.

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NOt one Scripture quoted shows that. It is clear that drunkeness is wrong. Scriptures quoted say absolutely nothing about totally abstaining. That is rules added to what Scripture teaches, if you are honest with yourself.

Drinking in moderation does not cause a stumbling block. I fail to see how that causes any stumbling block. The scripture dealing with that deals with food and drink sacrificed to idols. Many believers came from pagan religions and previously worshiped those very idols, so eating that food and drinking that wine would cause them to fall back into their pagan worship of idols. Wine that I drink is not sacrificed to idols, and would cause no one to fall into false worship of gods. You are completely taking that Scriputre out of context, and brining your own assumptions into it.

Look back at the Scripture I have quoted. If you are honest with yourself, the BIble never commands totally abstaining from alcohol. You say God tells us to abstain, but not one passage of Scriputre quoted in this thread says that. That is extrapolated after enourmous mental and linguistic gymnastics to get there.

We already know your position as each time you show up here you take the unbiblical, liberal, modernistic position. If you continue to wish to place following your own will above God's you would do a great service to the Lord by not claiming to be a Christian.

How many multiple thousands of folks have become drunkards because they saw someone "respectable" drinking alcohol? How many so-called Christians become drunks after learning that other so-called Christians drink alcohol? How many so-called Christians have caused so many others to stumble to the point they began sitting in bars, drinking away their paychecks and eventually becoming adulterers? The list could go on. One can read current news or news from the past to learn of multiple accounts of such.

Followers of Christ are called to abstain from all appearance of evil. Even most of the unsaved world believes it's wrong for Christians to drink alcohol. Christians drinking alcohol are viewed as not following their religion, as not being good Christians, as setting a bad example...and for good reason! Christians who drink alcohol take on the appearance of evil. Christians who drink alcohol disregard several commands and principles of Scripture.

Followers of Christ are to live by a very high standard; they are not to live as close to the world as they can, and are especially not to live as the world.

As all of us should do when we place our way above the Lord's, you need to examine your salvation. You need to count the cost, as Scripture declares, and see if you are actually willing to pay the price necessary to be a disciple of Christ. I will continue to pray for you.
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Assuming that is how alcohol is made, who do you think created the process of decay? You need to pray. Have you ever accepted Christ as your lord and saviour? You too can be saved. Pm me if you would like to know more about salvation.

Obviously you are here to stir strife and Scripture is clear as how such are to be dealt with.

God created all things. God created processes. Many created things and processes are now corrupt because of sin and the results of the Fall.

Not all things are good or profitable for the Christian. There are several biblical reasons a Chistian should not drink alcohol. Among them, the fact that Christians are "kings and priests" and Scripture declares they are not to drink alcohol. Christians are to present no stumbling block before weaker brothers and others. Christians are to abstain from all appearance of evil.

In taking unbiblical positions here and with the dismal attitude you have displayed, it would be wise if you yourself were to examine your salvation. I will offer up a prayer for you now.
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I am NOT a drinker of any alcoholic beverage. I do not believe my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ promoted drinking fermented wine no matter in excess or not. Whether Christ drank fermented wine or not is of no consequence to me. He probably did, since that would have been a drink (not the only drink) offered to Him at the houses where He had supper. Christ is God and I will not attempt to tell Him what He can or cannot do/did. If you or I had a glass of wine it would not be a sin.

It is obvious the scriptures tell us not to be a drunkard but, I can't find reasonable evidence they require we abstain from fermented wine either. However, it also appears you can't dedicate your life to God and be a drunkard. I don't know how easy it would be to witness to someone with wine on your breath. It might be difficult to allow the Holy Spirit to guide you during witnessing for Christ if you were impaired by wine.

Some day when I have more time I'll study this in greater detail but, it won't be a high priority.

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By the way, the process of fermentation is much more than decay (as far as I can tell this is the only "natural" process). As we've seen, decay without any man in the process will quickly turn to vinegar. There has to be man made processes for fermentation.

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By the way, the process of fermentation is much more than decay (as far as I can tell this is the only "natural" process). As we've seen, decay without any man in the process will quickly turn to vinegar. There has to be man made processes for fermentation.

Excellent observation! If it were only the decay, then man would not have to intervene at all. But we know man does intervene.

Alcohol is the product of man's hands... not God's.
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By the way, the process of fermentation is much more than decay (as far as I can tell this is the only "natural" process). As we've seen, decay without any man in the process will quickly turn to vinegar. There has to be man made processes for fermentation.


You are right. Man, or something else, has to add yeast (I don't know that I would call any part of the process decay any more than I would call 'aging' decay). Regardless, God created the process of fermentation. The psalmist tells us that God gave us wine to make our hearts happy. It's a gift. Should it be abused? No. Should one be a drunkard? No -- that is sin. But, wine obviously has some redeeming quality as Christ used it to perform his first public miracle and Paul prescribed it as a treatment for stomach ailments. We could go round and round with this and two facts will remain true: the liberal use of alcohol is contrary to scripture and the total abstination from alcohol is contrary to scripture. It would appear that, just as with food, alcohol, if to be used at all, is to be used in moderation.

As far as the "appearance of evil argument goes," it only appears evil to those that think it is evil. God made it and everything God made is good. It is man and his abuse of God's creation that is evil.

War Eagle! Hey!
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You are right. Man, or something else, has to add yeast (I don't know that I would call any part of the process decay any more than I would call 'aging' decay). Regardless, God created the process of fermentation. The psalmist tells us that God gave us wine to make our hearts happy. It's a gift. Should it be abused? No. Should one be a drunkard? No -- that is sin. But, wine obviously has some redeeming quality as Christ used it to perform his first public miracle and Paul prescribed it as a treatment for stomach ailments. We could go round and round with this and two facts will remain true: the liberal use of alcohol is contrary to scripture and the total abstination from alcohol is contrary to scripture. It would appear that, just as with food, alcohol, if to be used at all, is to be used in moderation.

As far as the "appearance of evil argument goes," it only appears evil to those that think it is evil. God made it and everything God made is good. It is man and his abuse of God's creation that is evil.

War Eagle! Hey!

Everything God made is good is true. However, today we live in a fallen world where the good that God created has been tainted and is no longer in that good state it was in when created.

As well, even though God is the Creator, that which He created can be used wrongfully and sinfully. God created everything necessary to make guns and bullets yet it's still wrong and a sin to use that gun to murder. Various poisons, inlcuding alcohol, have some purposes yet when wrongly used they are sin.

With regard to the command to abstain from all appearance of evil, even if there is a chance someone may view our action as evil, we are commanded to abstain. This is similar to the command to avoid doing anything that might cause a weaker brother to stumble. In such case, we are commanded to willingly abstain even from that which is lawful, for the benefit of our brother.

The second great commandment, to love others, cannot be fulfilled if we are doing anything that might cause them to think evil of Christ or Christianity; if what we are doing may cause a brother to stumble. We are to be willing even to suffer loss to avoid for the sake of giving no appearance of evil and in taking care not to give occasion for a brother to stumble.

The call to follow Christ is a call to sacrifice ALL for the sake of Christ. Jesus tells us that if we are to be His disciples then we must forsake all, even to the point of giving up everything and everyone; Christ is to come first. Nothing is to come between us and Christ, between us and serving Christ, between us and our brothers.
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We already know your position as each time you show up here you take the unbiblical, liberal, modernistic position. If you continue to wish to place following your own will above God's you would do a great service to the Lord by not claiming to be a Christian.

How many multiple thousands of folks have become drunkards because they saw someone "respectable" drinking alcohol? How many so-called Christians become drunks after learning that other so-called Christians drink alcohol? How many so-called Christians have caused so many others to stumble to the point they began sitting in bars, drinking away their paychecks and eventually becoming adulterers? The list could go on. One can read current news or news from the past to learn of multiple accounts of such.

Followers of Christ are called to abstain from all appearance of evil. Even most of the unsaved world believes it's wrong for Christians to drink alcohol. Christians drinking alcohol are viewed as not following their religion, as not being good Christians, as setting a bad example...and for good reason! Christians who drink alcohol take on the appearance of evil. Christians who drink alcohol disregard several commands and principles of Scripture.

Followers of Christ are to live by a very high standard; they are not to live as close to the world as they can, and are especially not to live as the world.

As all of us should do when we place our way above the Lord's, you need to examine your salvation. You need to count the cost, as Scripture declares, and see if you are actually willing to pay the price necessary to be a disciple of Christ. I will continue to pray for you.


I have not said anything unbliblical. In fact, I quoted extensive scripture to establish that the Bible does not prohibit all use of alcohol. Having a beer does not give a bad witness. I fail to see how it does so. Having a beer or glass of wine does not take on the appearance of evil. How is that? Is eating chicken fried steak and gravy, rolls with butter, and apple pie for dessert setting a bad example because it might lead some into glutony? Glutony is evil, but I don't see any condemnation of eating unhealthy, fatty foods in moderation. I fail to see how alcohol is any differnt. Alcohol in excess, is clearly condemned, as is food in excess. There is simply no support for your position that the Bible authoritativly prohibits all use of alcohol. I can see how some interpret the Bible to say it is best not to partake, but there is not authoritative scripture you can point to.

I guess it is easy for you to say just because I do not agree with you on every point, then my view is incorrect and makes me not a follower of Christ, and that your interpretation is superior.. Mypoint is that this ought not be a divisive issue. How can you not see that reasonable minds can differ on this topic? I have tried to point out the falacy of your argument, but obviously you are blinded by your presupositions. I can tell you that you are reading things that are simply not there in the Bible when you say it condemns all use of alcohol.

To counter your point, I have known many young people driven to excessive drinking because of their upbringing that all alcoholic use is wrong. How many of these people would have been saved heartache if they had been taught to use alcohol in moderation and to use it responsibly instead of binge drinking and using it solely to get drunk? I can say that failing to teach responsibility has led to many young people abusing alcohol. All I am pointing out is there are many issues here, and the Bible is not clear as to any use of alcohol, it is only clear that excessive use is wrong. You can't point me to anything that says that is unbiblical.
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I have not said anything unbliblical. In fact, I quoted extensive scripture to establish that the Bible does not prohibit all use of alcohol. Having a beer does not give a bad witness. I fail to see how it does so. Having a beer or glass of wine does not take on the appearance of evil. How is that? Is eating chicken fried steak and gravy, rolls with butter, and apple pie for dessert setting a bad example because it might lead some into glutony? Glutony is evil, but I don't see any condemnation of eating unhealthy, fatty foods in moderation. I fail to see how alcohol is any differnt. Alcohol in excess, is clearly condemned, as is food in excess. There is simply no support for your position that the Bible authoritativly prohibits all use of alcohol. I can see how some interpret the Bible to say it is best not to partake, but there is not authoritative scripture you can point to.

I guess it is easy for you to say just because I do not agree with you on every point, then my view is incorrect and makes me not a follower of Christ, and that your interpretation is superior.. Mypoint is that this ought not be a divisive issue. How can you not see that reasonable minds can differ on this topic? I have tried to point out the falacy of your argument, but obviously you are blinded by your presupositions. I can tell you that you are reading things that are simply not there in the Bible when you say it condemns all use of alcohol.

To counter your point, I have known many young people driven to excessive drinking because of their upbringing that all alcoholic use is wrong. How many of these people would have been saved heartache if they had been taught to use alcohol in moderation and to use it responsibly instead of binge drinking and using it solely to get drunk? I can say that failing to teach responsibility has led to many young people abusing alcohol. All I am pointing out is there are many issues here, and the Bible is not clear as to any use of alcohol, it is only clear that excessive use is wrong. You can't point me to anything that says that is unbiblical.

What you have done is attempt to twist the Scripture to agree with you. Once again you place your personal preference or opinion above the Word of God. There is absolutely no justification in Scripture for a Christian to drink alcohol while there is an abundance of reasons for the Christian to abstain from alcohol. Any Christian who wishes to abide by the Word of God must abstain from alcohol or at the very least they will be violating the second great commandment and the attendant commandments stemming from that.

Christians are to sacrifice all for the sake of Christ, even giving up our preferences with regard to food and drink, for the sake of Christ and others.
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I have not said anything unbliblical. In fact, I quoted extensive scripture to establish that the Bible does not prohibit all use of alcohol. Having a beer does not give a bad witness. I fail to see how it does so. Having a beer or glass of wine does not take on the appearance of evil. How is that? Is eating chicken fried steak and gravy, rolls with butter, and apple pie for dessert setting a bad example because it might lead some into glutony? Glutony is evil, but I don't see any condemnation of eating unhealthy, fatty foods in moderation. I fail to see how alcohol is any differnt. Alcohol in excess, is clearly condemned, as is food in excess. There is simply no support for your position that the Bible authoritativly prohibits all use of alcohol. I can see how some interpret the Bible to say it is best not to partake, but there is not authoritative scripture you can point to.

I guess it is easy for you to say just because I do not agree with you on every point, then my view is incorrect and makes me not a follower of Christ, and that your interpretation is superior.. Mypoint is that this ought not be a divisive issue. How can you not see that reasonable minds can differ on this topic? I have tried to point out the falacy of your argument, but obviously you are blinded by your presupositions. I can tell you that you are reading things that are simply not there in the Bible when you say it condemns all use of alcohol.

To counter your point, I have known many young people driven to excessive drinking because of their upbringing that all alcoholic use is wrong. How many of these people would have been saved heartache if they had been taught to use alcohol in moderation and to use it responsibly instead of binge drinking and using it solely to get drunk? I can say that failing to teach responsibility has led to many young people abusing alcohol. All I am pointing out is there are many issues here, and the Bible is not clear as to any use of alcohol, it is only clear that excessive use is wrong. You can't point me to anything that says that is unbiblical.


I believe that it is not a question of whether a person drinks or not but rather what is a person's motivation for drinking. Christ calls us to be sober and vigilant. Anyone that has studied the affects of alcohol knows that it hinders reactions and skews our judgement. Most people drink to relax, escape or deal with emotional pain. Jesus is our refuge and strength we find our peace and joy in His presence.
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What you have done is attempt to twist the Scripture to agree with you. Once again you place your personal preference or opinion above the Word of God. There is absolutely no justification in Scripture for a Christian to drink alcohol while there is an abundance of reasons for the Christian to abstain from alcohol. Any Christian who wishes to abide by the Word of God must abstain from alcohol or at the very least they will be violating the second great commandment and the attendant commandments stemming from that.

Christians are to sacrifice all for the sake of Christ, even giving up our preferences with regard to food and drink, for the sake of Christ and others.


I respectfully disagree. Those saying the use of alcohol is completely prohibited are twisting scripture to fit their preconcieved notions. I have not twisted any Scripture, I have just quoted it and pointed out that nothing serves as authoritative, complete prohibition. Jesus serving wine at Cana is a prime example. Those saying it was definitely grape juice go to great lengths to twist what the Bible says to say there is no doubt he served grape juice. The Bible says he turned water into wine. The scriptures I quoted above demonstrate that wine is a sign of blessing from God. Isaac drank wine when he blessed Jaccob and wished that God blesses him with a multitude of corn and wine. In Deutoronomy, blessings are given by giving bread and wine. How, may I ask, is that twisting Scripture?

I am merely pointing out that the Bible, whild it does not tell people that they must drink wine, clearly permits its use at times in moderation. There are very good reasons to abstain, and I respect and honor those who feel called to do so. There are also reasons that using wine in moderation is acceptable and does not violate any commands of God.
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    • Razor

      “Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to reform (or pause and reflect).”
      ― Mark Twain
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    • Razor

      “Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to reform (or pause and reflect).”
      ― Mark Twain
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    • Razor

      Psalms 139 Psalm 139:9-10
      9. If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; 10. even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy righthand shall hold me. 
       
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    • Bro. West  »  Pastor Scott Markle

      Advanced revelation, then...prophecy IS advanced revelation in the context of the apostles.
      I really do not know where you are going with this. The Bible itself has revelations and prophecies and not all revelations are prophecies.
      Paul had things revealed to him that were hid and unknown that the Gentiles would be fellow heirs.
      How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Eph 3:3-9
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    • Bro. West

      Seeing it is Christ----mas time and I was answering question on Luke 2:33 concerning Jesus, Mary and Joseph . I thought it would be fitting to display a poem i wrote concerning the matter.
      SCRIPTURAL MARY

      I WALK NOT ON WATER NOR CHANGE IT TO WINE
      SO HEARKEN O’ SINNER TO THIS STORY OF MINE
      I, AM A DAUGHTER OF ABRAHAM SINNER BY BIRTH
      A HAND MAID OF LOW ESTATE USED HERE ON EARTH
      MY HAIR IS NOT GENTILE BLOND, I HAVE NOT EYES OF BLUE
      A MOTHER OF MANY CHILDREN A DAUGHTER OF A JEW
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      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY SO TRUST ME NOT
                                               2
      WHEN I WAS A VIRGIN UNKNOWN BY MAN
      THE ANGEL OF GOD SPOKE OF GOD’S PLAN
      FOR I HAD BEEN CHOSEN A FAVOUR VESSEL OF CLAY
      TO BARE THE SON OF THE HIGHEST BY AN UNUSUAL WAY
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      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY SO TRUST ME NOT
                                              3
      THEN MY SOUL DID REJOICE IN GOD MY SAVIOR
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      O’ THE RICH ARE EMPTY, THE HUNGRY HAVE GOOD THINGS
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      ON A BEAST OF BURDEN OUR STRENGTH NEAR SPEND
      NO ROOM AT An INN, BUT A STABLE WAS FOUND
      WITH STRAW AND DUNG LAID ON THE GROUND
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      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY, SO TRUST ME NOT
                                                  4
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      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY SO TRUST ME NOT
                                               5
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      HER BLACK ROBE PRIEST FILL THEIR LIPS WITH MY NAME
      WITH BLASPHEMOUS PRAISE, DAMMATION AND SHAME
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      6
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      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY, O’ SINNER TRUST ME NOT

                       WRITTEN BY BRO. WEST
       
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