Which wine is the good wine?

[no name joe]

Context shows whether the wine is alcoholic in content or not. When God approves of it, it is not alcoholic. When God disapproves, it is alcoholic.

God is not double-minded. He is not going to say in one verse that alcohol is ok to drink and then in another that it is not. If He says in one verse that wine is not to be drank, then He is speaking of alcohol. If He says wine is to be drank, He is not speaking of alcohol.

Where does God say that God categorically disapproves of alcohol? It is not in the Bible. It simply is not there. That is something that is added by your interpretatio. God disapproves of drunkeness, glutony and adultry. He does not disapprove of wine, food and sex when used properly.

You cannot point to a single verse in Scripture that completely forbids alcohol. The verses I cited above demonstrate that, clearly. In some of them, the use of strong drink is permitted and acknowledged. You cannot say that strong drink contains no alcohol.

[John81]

Scritpure taken as a whole is very clear that no Christian should drink alcoholic drinks. More than enough Scripture has been put forth to show this. Christians are kings and priests, which are not to drink such. Drinking such can present a stumbling block to others and can bring reproach to the name of Christ which are both further reasons Christians should not drink alcoholic drinks.

If one professes to be a Christian then there is no "it's okay for some to drink but not others", it's clear that no Christian should drink alcohol or condone the drinking of alcohol.

[no name joe]

Scritpure taken as a whole is very clear that no Christian should drink alcoholic drinks. More than enough Scripture has been put forth to show this. Christians are kings and priests, which are not to drink such. Drinking such can present a stumbling block to others and can bring reproach to the name of Christ which are both further reasons Christians should not drink alcoholic drinks.

If one professes to be a Christian then there is no "it's okay for some to drink but not others", it's clear that no Christian should drink alcohol or condone the drinking of alcohol.

NOt one Scripture quoted shows that. It is clear that drunkeness is wrong. Scriptures quoted say absolutely nothing about totally abstaining. That is rules added to what Scripture teaches, if you are honest with yourself.

Drinking in moderation does not cause a stumbling block. I fail to see how that causes any stumbling block. The scripture dealing with that deals with food and drink sacrificed to idols. Many believers came from pagan religions and previously worshiped those very idols, so eating that food and drinking that wine would cause them to fall back into their pagan worship of idols. Wine that I drink is not sacrificed to idols, and would cause no one to fall into false worship of gods. You are completely taking that Scriputre out of context, and brining your own assumptions into it.

Look back at the Scripture I have quoted. If you are honest with yourself, the BIble never commands totally abstaining from alcohol. You say God tells us to abstain, but not one passage of Scriputre quoted in this thread says that. That is extrapolated after enourmous mental and linguistic gymnastics to get there.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Where does God say that God categorically disapproves of alcohol? It is not in the Bible. It simply is not there. That is something that is added by your interpretatio. God disapproves of drunkeness, glutony and adultry. He does not disapprove of wine, food and sex when used properly.

You cannot point to a single verse in Scripture that completely forbids alcohol. The verses I cited above demonstrate that, clearly. In some of them, the use of strong drink is permitted and acknowledged. You cannot say that strong drink contains no alcohol.

Proverbs 23:31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.

Notice it says look not upon the wine WHEN IT IS..., not look not upon the wine AFTER YOU....

A clear command to abstain from wine when it is alcoholic.

[no name joe]

Proverbs 23:31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.

Notice it says look not upon the wine WHEN IT IS..., not look not upon the wine AFTER YOU....

A clear command to abstain from wine when it is alcoholic.0

Again, you take one verse out of context. Let's look at the entire paragraph in which this is located:

29(AK) Who has woe? Who has sorrow?
Who has strife? Who has complaining?
Who has wounds without cause?
Who has redness of eyes?
30Those who tarry long over wine;
those who go to try mixed wine.
31Do not look at wine when it is red,
when it sparkles in the cup
and goes down smoothly.
32In the end it bites like a serpent
and stings like an adder.
33Your eyes will see strange things,
and your heart utter perverse things.
34You will be like one who lies down in the midst of the sea,
like one who lies on the top of a mast.[h]
35"They struck me," you will say, "but I was not hurt;
they beat me, but I did not feel it.
When shall I awake?
I must have another drink."

The passage says "those who tarry long over wine" has these problems. This is a direct reference to drinking in excess. This passage clearly is dealing with drunkeness. In the end, after one has tarried long over wine and has abused the drink, it bites like a serpent. their eyes see strange things, their senses are dulled ("they struck me, but I was not hurt." This passage, out of the book of wisdom is teaching that it is not wise to get drunk. The last verse says, "When shall I awake, I must have another drink." This is a reference to one who abuses alcohol.

Why does it say, "Do not tarry long over wine" instead of "do not drink wine?" This is not a passage of command. It is a passage of wisdom. The wisdom in this passage is that we are not to drink to excess. We are not to get drunk. We are not to drink to the point of our eyes seeing strange things and uttering perverse things. We re not to drink to the point of our senses being dulled so that if someone strikes us, we will not feel it. Furthermore, if a person has trouble drinking to excess and has a weakness, then it is wise to abstain.

THe context of this passage is clearly warning against drunkeness.

Some people have trouble overeating and should not look at food with desire, like a drunkard looks at wine with desire. The same principal applies with lust. I, for one, have a problem looking at beautiful women. It is a weak place of mine. I should not look at a beautiful woman with desire. I can see a woman and appreciate her beauty, but if I tarry long, that will turn to lust and lead to harful and destructive ways. The same is true for wine. Some people have a weakness, and look at wine with exterme desire and are tempted to drink to excess. Those people sould not tarry long, or their desire will lead them to excess which will lead to destructive actions.

Again, this is not a complete command of prohibition, but a passage warning of the dangers of the abuse of alcohol. Edited May 18, 2011 by kindofblue1977

[Standing Firm In Christ]

1 Thessalonians 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

1 Thessalonians 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

I find it interesting that Strongs translates the Greek word 'nepho' as sober.

Strong's Greek Dictionary
3525. nepho
Search for G3525 in KJVSL
nhjw nepho nay'-fo
of uncertain affinity: to abstain from wine (keep sober), i.e. (figuratively) be discreet:--be sober, watch.

The primary meaning of the word 'nepho' is 'to abstain from alcohol.

Here are all the references to the word 'nepho'. 1Th 5:6,8; 2Ti 4:5; 1Pe 1:13; 4:7; 5:8 It is clear that even in the New Testament, abstinence from alcohol was taught.

New American Standard Greek Dictionary:


G3525 νήφω nēphō; a prim. word; to be sober, to abstain from wine:—keep sober (1), sober (5).

We have instances in both the Old and New Testaments (Pr 23:31; 1 Thes 5:6,8) of instructions to abstain from alcohol.

[no name joe]

1 Thessalonians 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

1 Thessalonians 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

I find it interesting that Strongs translates the Greek word 'nepho' as sober.



The primary meaning of the word 'nepho' is 'to abstain from alcohol.

Here are all the references to the word 'nepho'. 1Th 5:6,8; 2Ti 4:5; 1Pe 1:13; 4:7; 5:8 It is clear that even in the New Testament, abstinence from alcohol was taught.



We have instances in both the Old and New Testaments (Pr 23:31; 1 Thes 5:6,8) of instructions to abstain from alcohol.

Here are the 6 uses of nepho in Scripture

1 Thessalonians 5:6 (note) so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober....8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.

2 Timothy 4:5 (note) But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

1 Peter 1:13 (note) Therefore, gird your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 4:7 (note) The end of all things is at hand; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer.

1 Peter 5:8 Be of sober spirit, be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls about like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.

Nepho conveys the idea of freedom from excitability (a contrast to the excitement of drunkenness) and thus means to be calm and collected in spirit, temperate (marked by moderation, keeping within limits, not extreme or excessive), not given to excessive indulgence in drink or any other activity, dispassionate (not influenced by strong feeling; especially not affected by personal or emotional involvement), circumspect (careful to consider all circumstances and possible consequences, prudently watchful and discreet in the face of danger or risk), with equanimity (evenness of mind especially under stress and suggests a habit of mind that is only rarely disturbed under great strain), cool (marked by steady dispassionate calmness and self-control) and unimpassioned.

These Scriptures are not discussing the use or non use of alchol. Everyone of them is speaking of being alert in mind and spirit against attacks of Satan, being alert and having our ears open to God. We are to be active, alert, crips, sober, in our spiritual walk.

Nothing here says complete abstention from alcohol is required. The principle is that wee are to be of sound mind. That would include not drinking to excess, which would cloud our judgment.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Again, you take one verse out of context. Let's look at the entire paragraph in which this is located:

29(AK) Who has woe? Who has sorrow?
Who has strife? Who has complaining?
Who has wounds without cause?
Who has redness of eyes?
30Those who tarry long over wine;
those who go to try mixed wine.
31Do not look at wine when it is red,
when it sparkles in the cup
and goes down smoothly.
32In the end it bites like a serpent
and stings like an adder.
33Your eyes will see strange things,
and your heart utter perverse things.
34You will be like one who lies down in the midst of the sea,
like one who lies on the top of a mast.[h]
35"They struck me," you will say, "but I was not hurt;
they beat me, but I did not feel it.
When shall I awake?
I must have another drink."

The passage says "those who tarry long over wine" has these problems. This is a direct reference to drinking in excess. This passage clearly is dealing with drunkeness. In the end, after one has tarried long over wine and has abused the drink, it bites like a serpent. their eyes see strange things, their senses are dulled ("they struck me, but I was not hurt." This passage, out of the book of wisdom is teaching that it is not wise to get drunk. The last verse says, "When shall I awake, I must have another drink." This is a reference to one who abuses alcohol.

Why does it say, "Do not tarry long over wine" instead of "do not drink wine?" This is not a passage of command. It is a passage of wisdom. The wisdom in this passage is that we are not to drink to excess. We are not to get drunk. We are not to drink to the point of our eyes seeing strange things and uttering perverse things. We re not to drink to the point of our senses being dulled so that if someone strikes us, we will not feel it. Furthermore, if a person has trouble drinking to excess and has a weakness, then it is wise to abstain.

THe context of this passage is clearly warning against drunkeness.

Some people have trouble overeating and should not look at food with desire, like a drunkard looks at wine with desire. The same principal applies with lust. I, for one, have a problem looking at beautiful women. It is a weak place of mine. I should not look at a beautiful woman with desire. I can see a woman and appreciate her beauty, but if I tarry long, that will turn to lust and lead to harful and destructive ways. The same is true for wine. Some people have a weakness, and look at wine with exterme desire and are tempted to drink to excess. Those people sould not tarry long, or their desire will lead them to excess which will lead to destructive actions.

Again, this is not a complete command of prohibition, but a passage warning of the dangers of the abuse of alcohol.

The verse does not say 'do not tarry long over wine.' It clearly says not to drink it. "Look not" is the Hebrew word "Ra'ah" and carries with it the meanings, 'do not approve of', 'do not experience', 'do not consider', 'do not enjoy', and many other negative connotations.

The command is not to have anything to do with alcohol. Notice nowhere in that passage does Solomon say the one he was instructing could have alcohol... nowhere. He was teaching that those who have redness of eyes, woes, contentions, wounds without cause are those who have been drinking for a period, yes... but he never gave permission in that verse to drink alcohol in any amount. He was just pointing out the maladies associated with those who drink.

He had previously stated that wine had deceptive qualities. (Psalm 20:1) He now reveals what that wine will do to a person. He then instructs, don't even experience wine WHEN IT IS fermented. Why not? Because if you do, in the end it will bite like a poisonous snake.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Concerning Proverbs 23:31, William Arnot stated:

" Look not tliou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth
his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. At the last
it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder." This teacher
does more than merely counsel the youth not to drink to excess :
this father distinctly advises his son to turn his eyes away from
the face of that cup, which has a charm in its visage and a sting
in its tail. For my part, I shall endeavour to follow his example :
I shall do what I can to persuade my son not to look at all upon
any cup whose nature it is to sting those who take much, and to
tempt to much those who taste a little. I shall keep close by the
very words of Scripture ; I shall say to him, My son,
" look not
thou upon it ; -- Laws From Heaven For Life on Earth; p. 479

" "

[heartstrings]

In dealing with this passage, one must realize that Lemuel is not a saved man. Salvation is through faith and trust in Christ and His finished work at Calvary and His ultimate resurrection from the dead. That is what brings Salvation to all men. (1 Corinthians 15:1-4)

That said, Lemuel's mother was giving him permission to give fermented drink to one who was condemned. (We see this practice being used at the crucifixion when the soldier offered Jesus wine mixed with gall,... which Jesus refused)

But Christians are not to give that which makes men drunkards to anyone. We are ambassadors of Christ, not emissaries of satan.

First of all, the name "Lemuel", according to Strong's, means "for God"...interesting
Second, Proverbs 31, in it's entirety, is some of the best, most Godly advice in the Bible.
Third, How do you know that Lemuel was not a saved man?
fourtth, in your claim that "Lemuel's mother was giving him permission to give fermented drink to one who was condemned", you didn't mention part of the verse that said something else...........

Proverbs 31:6 Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.
.7Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more.

Have you ever been so depressed that you could see no way out and life didn't seem worth living?
And "perish" doesn't always mean "go to Hell". Do you suppose they may have given "strong drink" to individuals dying of things like cancer to ease their suffering, instead of let them just scream in pain?

[mattd]

The Jesus I serve would not give alcohol to anyone.

I'm afraid he did, despite your disapproval (he is, after all, GOD). My source: the Bible, KJV 1611. You'll have to answer for these things you are saying. I urge you to the luna.

[HappyChristian]

I'm afraid he did, despite your disapproval (he is, after all, GOD). My source: the Bible, KJV 1611. You'll have to answer for these things you are saying. I urge you to the luna.

Matt, what is the luna? If it's just silliness, please stop. If it's moon junk, please stop. Thanks.

As to the alcohol content: fresh grapes have slight alcohol content, but not the amount that causes drunkenness - anymore than fresh grape juice today would. Jesus would not serve something that people could overindulge and become drunken on. During His life here on earth, He was not inconsistent with any teachings of scripture. And giving drink to people who could become drunken would be...

[Standing Firm In Christ]

First of all, the name "Lemuel", according to Strong's, means "for God"...interesting
Second, Proverbs 31, in it's entirety, is some of the best, most Godly advice in the Bible.
Third, How do you know that Lemuel was not a saved man?
fourtth, in your claim that "Lemuel's mother was giving him permission to give fermented drink to one who was condemned", you didn't mention part of the verse that said something else...........

Proverbs 31:6 Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.
.7Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more.

Have you ever been so depressed that you could see no way out and life didn't seem worth living?
And "perish" doesn't always mean "go to Hell". Do you suppose they may have given "strong drink" to individuals dying of things like cancer to ease their suffering, instead of let them just scream in pain?

While names in the Bible often reflected a person's nature, this was not always the case.
I agree that Proverbs 31 is godly advice.
Scripture tells us that people were not saved pre-cross... only called righteous. It is Christ's blood that cleanses us from all sin, the blood of goats and bulls could not meet the requirement that was needed to purchase our Salvation.
Strong drink and wine, because of their deceiving qualities, will cause one to forget one's poverty and misery.

Never got to that point in my life where I felt life was not worth living, no. The point with the alcohol is not for the saved is because the saved are not in misery. He has turned our sorrow into joy. We are not ready to perish. Perich in Proverbs 31 is speaking of the condemned according to most commentaries I have read.

[heartstrings]

Matt, what is the luna? If it's just silliness, please stop. If it's moon junk, please stop. Thanks.

As to the alcohol content: fresh grapes have slight alcohol content, but not the amount that causes drunkenness - anymore than fresh grape juice today would. Jesus would not serve something that people could overindulge and become drunken on. During His life here on earth, He was not inconsistent with any teachings of scripture. And giving drink to people who could become drunken would be...

Yes...what is "the luna"? Moon worship?

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Yes...what is "the luna"? Moon worship?

I googled 'look to the luna' and it is in reference to looking at the moon. It is from a kill action in a popular video game, Mortal Kombat... also in another game called Super Meat Boy. The phrase does not belong on a Christian board, imo.