Which wine is the good wine?

[Crushmaster]

"You have the saved the best grape juice for last!"

I'm sorry, but...No. There's no Scriptural reason to believe it was anything other than fermented wine ("fermented wine" is kind of redundant, anyway). I can easily explain any Scripture that is used against the moderate consumption of alcohol. Take the ones in Proverbs, for instance; they are all obviously referring to drunkenness.
God bless,
Joel ><>.

Edited May 14, 2011 by Crushmaster

[onebigkahuna]

I find it interesting that Jesus calls his mother Woman. As in a separation from son and mother to Saviour to Woman , because Mary also had to except Jesus as Saviour. Mary tells the servants Joh 2:5 His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it. Obey Him! Not because he is her son , but because He is The Son.
Conversion..water to wine...picture of Baptism ,( water/Blood) is not wine a picture of blood? Mar 14:23-25 And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them: and they all drank of it. And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many. Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God.

As it says Joh 2:9 When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was:..Did not the ruler of the feast ever taste fermented wine?.. But when he had tasted it KNEW NOT whence ( what ) it was .. because what they were drinking was not from "earth" , but was a MIRACLE drink..With NO corruption in it.

Also could not the wording ..made wine ..be said as "replaced the wine"? Made a substitute for the wine?

Edited May 14, 2011 by onebigkahuna

[Guest]

I find it interesting that Jesus calls his mother Woman. As in a separation from son and mother to Saviour to Woman , because Mary also had to except Jesus as Saviour. Mary tells the servants Joh 2:5 His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it. Obey Him! Not because he is her son , but because He is The Son.
Conversion..water to wine...picture of Baptism ,( water/Blood) is not wine a picture of blood? Mar 14:23-25 And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them: and they all drank of it. And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many. Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God.

As it says Joh 2:9 When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was:..Did not the ruler of the feast ever taste fermented wine?.. But when he had tasted it KNEW NOT whence ( what ) it was .. because what they were drinking was not from "earth" , but was a MIRACLE drink..With NO corruption in it.

Also could not the wording ..made wine ..be said as "replaced the wine"? Made a substitute for the wine?

Its great to have new thought on the board...welcome. Interesting analogy, I'll have to do some study.

[heartstrings]

Ok,
Let's go back to the first scriptures I posted....I'm going to "paraphrase"

#1 Jesus said that men who have drunk wine, always say that the "OLD wine is better.
#2. From what we understand, OLD wine, is wine that has been fermented.
#3. It is also evident that the "ruler" of the wedding feast was an experienced wine drinker.
#4 The ruler (see #s 1 and 2) stated that the wine was "the good wine" .

Some things to think about...
Could it be possible that Jesus made the wine taste so good that, if it was in fact the non alcoholic "new wine", it tasted like or even better than "old wine"?

Also, if you just witnessed such a miracle, would you begin guzzling or would you instead be standing there with your jaw dropped to the floor, stricken with amazement about what had just happened?

[anime4christ]

Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts. - Proverbs 31:6

Does the Bible contradict itself, or does it have principles which are to applied differently in different contexts? Drunkenness is foolish and often results in sin, but drinking wine is never said to be wrong or sin. That said, what is the motive for drinking? This can often be the part that is sinful for many people who want to drink, but not always.

[Invicta]

Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts. - Proverbs 31:6

Does the Bible contradict itself, or does it have principles which are to applied differently in different contexts? Drunkenness is foolish and often results in sin, but drinking wine is never said to be wrong or sin. That said, what is the motive for drinking? This can often be the part that is sinful for many people who want to drink, but not always.

My answer to this and all the other views, is:

I don't know.

Jesus was accused of being a winebibber.

Mt 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.
Lu 7:34 The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!

[JerryNumbers]

Jesus would not get people drunk, and of course if it was truly alcoholic wine, they would have got drunk.

[anime4christ]

Depends on how much you drink, your body type, and the alcohol content of the wine you are drinking. Jewish wine usually doesn't have as high of a alcohol content as most modern wine. I don't drink even "small, elegant" amounts because I just don't really care for alcohol, but when I did, I could drink two glasses of wine (16% alcohol) without it affecting me (which is weird because I have a small body type, under 120lb). My mom, on the other hand, gets dizzy from even a tablespoon of wine, if she takes some for medical purposes.

Edited May 15, 2011 by anime4christ

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Did Jesus turn the water into fermented wine?

Luke 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

John 2:9 When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew;) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom, 10And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.

Which wine is the "good wine"?

"Good" does not necessitate "intoxicating."

Bruce Lackey had a good explanation about that 'good wine' of John 2. In it, he reveals 10 reasons that Jesus did not make an alcoholic wine. Reason #8 states:

"Many insist that it was alcoholic, on the basis of John 2:10, which says, “Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse; but thou hast kept the good wine until now.” They would say that, in those days, it was common to serve the best alcoholic wine at first, saving the worst until later, when men’s tastes have been dulled by much drinking. But the point is just the opposite here! These people could definitely recognize that the wine which Jesus made was much better than what they had been served at first. This could not have been possible if they were already well on their way to becoming intoxicated! The fact is, neither the wine which they had at first, nor that which Christ made, was alcoholic."

[anime4christ]

"Good" does not necessitate "intoxicating."

Bruce Lackey had a good explanation about that 'good wine' of John 2. In it, he reveals 10 reasons that Jesus did not make an alcoholic wine. Reason #8 states:

"Many insist that it was alcoholic, on the basis of John 2:10, which says, “Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse; but thou hast kept the good wine until now.” They would say that, in those days, it was common to serve the best alcoholic wine at first, saving the worst until later, when men’s tastes have been dulled by much drinking. But the point is just the opposite here! These people could definitely recognize that the wine which Jesus made was much better than what they had been served at first. This could not have been possible if they were already well on their way to becoming intoxicated! The fact is, neither the wine which they had at first, nor that which Christ made, was alcoholic."

It wasn't "these people" who said that about the wine, it was one specific person: the governor of the feast. The other people didn't notice or say anything, as far as we know. Reason #8 is based on a false assumption.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts. - Proverbs 31:6

Does the Bible contradict itself, or does it have principles which are to applied differently in different contexts? Drunkenness is foolish and often results in sin, but drinking wine is never said to be wrong or sin. That said, what is the motive for drinking? This can often be the part that is sinful for many people who want to drink, but not always.

From what I read in my Bible, the child of God will never perish.

So, Solomon must be speaking of giving wine to one who is not a child of God. One who is ready to perish.

[anime4christ]

I'm not trying to argue it was highly alcoholic for sure or whatever, it's just preposterous to say the wine was alcohol free with no evidence. I'm guessing like most Jewish wine in those days, it was probably around 10% alcohol, but we have no way of proving it and no basis to claim it was 0% alcohol. People who claim it was absolutely not alcoholic are just trying to back their assumption that all alcohol is sin, which is not in the Bible. That's the sole reason for these claims. I believe that alcohol is specifically not sinful for a very good reason: to reveal what's in the heart of man. A person going off a checklist (don't drink, don't smoke, wear a long skirt, etc.) can appear very righteous according to the list, but still have filth in his heart. When however a person is given the freedom to choose to drink or not to, knowing he won't be sinning merely by drinking, then the action that the person takes will reveal what is in his heart. What is this person's motivation to drink? In most cases, it can reveal a sin much deeper than can be addressed by a legalistic checklist. At the same time, when in a rarer case, someone does have a good reason to drink, we will not condemn him outright for drinking, but will want to know why he needed to drink. Therefore we won't judge ahead of time, but we can still practice discernment. It's a spiritual thing (called discernment), not a list of do's and don't's. That's what Jesus was trying to get through to people in His teachings. When will we get that?

[anime4christ]

From what I read in my Bible, the child of God will never perish.

So, Solomon must be speaking of giving wine to one who is not a child of God. One who is ready to perish.

Actually it was king Lemuel's mother who said that, not Solomon. And she wasn't necessarily speaking of those who are perishing for eternity. This was in the Old Testament, and this was talking about people having big problems in this physical/material life that they couldn't cope with.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

My answer to this and all the other views, is:

I don't know.

Jesus was accused of being a winebibber.

Mt 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.
Lu 7:34 The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!

The word winebibber (oinopotes) is a combination of two Greek words; 'oinos' meaning wine, and 'potes' meaning drinker. Jesus was not being accused of being a drunkard, He was being accused of being a wine drinker. Had they accused Him of being a drunkard, they would have used the Greek word for drunkard... 'methusos.'

And Jesus refuted the false accusation of Him being a wine drinker when He said, "But wisdom is justified of all her children.'

[Standing Firm In Christ]

I'm not trying to argue it was highly alcoholic for sure or whatever, it's just preposterous to say the wine was alcohol free with no evidence. I'm guessing like most Jewish wine in those days, it was probably around 10% alcohol, but we have no way of proving it and no basis to claim it was 0% alcohol. People who claim it was absolutely not alcoholic are just trying to back their assumption that all alcohol is sin, which is not in the Bible. That's the sole reason for these claims. I believe that alcohol is specifically not sinful for a very good reason: to reveal what's in the heart of man. A person going off a checklist (don't drink, don't smoke, wear a long skirt, etc.) can appear very righteous according to the list, but still have filth in his heart. When however a person is given the freedom to choose to drink or not to, knowing he won't be sinning merely by drinking, then the action that the person takes will reveal what is in his heart. What is this person's motivation to drink? In most cases, it can reveal a sin much deeper than can be addressed by a legalistic checklist. At the same time, when in a rarer case, someone does have a good reason to drink, we will not condemn him outright for drinking, but will want to know why he needed to drink. Therefore we won't judge ahead of time, but we can still practice discernment. It's a spiritual thing (called discernment), not a list of do's and don't's. That's what Jesus was trying to get through to people in His teachings. When will we get that?

The instructions in Proverbs 23:31 is to not look at the wine when it is in its fermented state. Solomon did not say drink a couple glasses and then don't look at it, he said don't look at it when it is fermented.

The Greek word for look not in Proverbs 23:31 carries with it the meanings, don't experience, don't approve of, don't enjoy, etc..

Solomon later instructs that it is not for kings to drink wine lest they forget the law and pervert the judgment of the afflicted. God's children are identified in His Word as 'kings and priests unto Him.'

As kings and priests, we are to abstain from alcoholic beverages.