Which wine is the good wine?

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Yes, that is my reasoning on it too. But suppose you are telling all this to a lost man who brings up the "water into wine" subject. A lost person doesn't even know Christ and certainly has no concept of abundant life, Christ's glory or His nature. So, as far as our logic goes, that's not logical to a lost man. Before faith can come, they must have the Word . What does the Word say?

If you are dealing with a lost man, reveal to him the sinless nature of the Lord Jesus Christ and the reason that the Lord came to Earth. Then reveal the lost man's unsaved condition. Lead him to Christ. Once you reveal Christ to that man, then reveal how the alcohol is contrary to the very nature of Christ. Edited May 19, 2011 by Standing Firm In Christ

[HappyChristian]

There has to be, Happy, We just haven't found it yet.

I wonder...simply because we are looking at it from a human standpoint. Grapes have natural alcohol in them. Not enough to make one drunk, but it is there. Fermentation causes binding of carbs, etc., and brings about decay, which increases the alcohol content.

The question you have to answer is, would God the Son go against His Word instructing against drunkenness to give fermented wine to people to whom He came to minister? Anyone with knowledge of the character of God would have to say no. Therefore, the wine wasn't fermented. It couldn't have been without going against biblical principles.

So, human logic can be applied to that, but we also need to take it by faith. SWIM?

[heartstrings]

Thanks Happy
Yes...I can backstroke, sidestroke, forward crawl, breast stroke, and dog paddle....I took swimming classes when I was in college
What does SWIM mean?

[HappyChristian]

Thanks Happy
Yes...I can backstroke, sidestroke, forward crawl, breast stroke, and dog paddle....I took swimming classes when I was in college
What does SWIM mean?

See What I Mean
:icon_mrgreen:

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Here's another thought...

Paul admonished the saints at Ephesus , "Be ye not drunk with wine, wherein is excess, but be ye filled with the Spirit." Notice Paul does not say at when measure the 'excess' is, or at what point one is drunk.

Did he mean falling down drunk? I don't thinks so.

In today's modern society, we have in the workplace, what many would refer to as 'functioning alcoholics.' Now 'alcoholic' is just a modern term for the Biblical word 'drunkard.'

Many can drink one beer, and will blow an easy .02 on the breathalyzer.... revealing that they are at a certain stage of drunkenness. .02 affects the motor skills to a degree. Even .01 will impair a person's reaction time. It increases as the BAC increases.

Now, I've said all that to say this...

At what stage is a person drunk? Solomon revealed that wine has the capability to deceive the one who is partaking of it. (Proverbs 20:1) Our current charts show that one is impaired beginning at .01. What if God's idea of 'drunk' is much lower? I submit to that since God inspired man to pen the Bible, and the Bible says 'Look not thou upon the wine WHEN IT IS...' that His test for drunkenness is much more strict than ours.

[Alimantado]

Can I add at this stage that I am extremely grateful to Standing-Firm-in-Christ, HappyChristian, kindofblue1977 and a few others for taking the time to explain their beliefs with reference to scripture. By doing so, we can all examine their positions closely and consider whether they have interpreted correctly. Whatever their positions actually are, I think they have all been acting in the spirit of 1 Peter 3:15 in explaining them, and that is precisely what we need in a discussion about 'Biblical Issues' (to give the title of this part of the forum). Too many others (perhaps me included) have chimed in with bald assertions about what scripture 'clearly shows', what a 'true Christian' would believe and what must be in the hearts of those that think differently, without giving so much as a line of scripture to support those assertions. Such contributions are next to useless, in my opinion.

So thanks again to those I've mentioned above, and to any who have tried to do the same.

Carl

[John81]

Jesus was holy and pure, without sin. It would have been sin had Jesus created alcoholic wine to be served to those who had already well drunk all the available wine, which would have either caused or added to drunkeness. That in itself is enough proof that the wine Jesus made at the wedding could not have been alcohol.

Interesting how willing some are to either brush off or simply ignore all the other verses put forth for why no Christian should drink alcohol. Christians are kings and priests and Scripture declares they are not do drink alcohol. Abstaining from the appearance of evil. Not putting a stumbling block before others. Protecting weaker brethren. That we are to do these in accord with the second great commandment, as well as a matter of sacrificing all for Christ.

As Dr. Rice often said, those unwilling to abide by the Word of God will not hear the Holy Spirit trying to tell them the same thing.

[Guest]

OK, being as fermentation is corruption, how can fermented wine represent the blood of the Savior?

I think it could represent the blood of the Savior having taken on the sins of the world. However, un-fermented could easily represent Christ's blood before and after. Also, to another earlier point, Christ's blood had been touched by man in two ways...man's sin and the spear in the side...just a thought.

Another thing that I hear folks discussing is that grape juice won't ferment without man's interaction...I don't think so. The white appearance on the skin of a grape is naturally occurring yeast. It will cause the sugars in wine to reach a maximum alcohol content of about 4%. Man's intervention causes the alcohol content to go as high as approx. 12%. I'll find a web site for this...

[DennisD]

I think it could represent the blood of the Savior having taken on the sins of the world. However, un-fermented could easily represent Christ's blood before and after. Also, to another earlier point, Christ's blood had been touched by man in two ways...man's sin and the spear in the side...just a thought.

Another thing that I hear folks discussing is that grape juice won't ferment without man's interaction...I don't think so. The white appearance on the skin of a grape is naturally occurring yeast. It will cause the sugars in wine to reach a maximum alcohol content of about 4%. Man's intervention causes the alcohol content to go as high as approx. 12%. I'll find a web site for this...

I'd be interested to see, here again is the one part from WOL Encyclopedia that specifically states it will turn to vinegar if left alone without mans processes. While I realize some don't believe David Cloud in some or most instances...I don't believe he is a liar and believe he put much time and study into this specific issue. Please read the entire thing and don't skim as there are important statements throughout.


4. The making of alcoholic beverages is not a strictly natural process. Years ago I took for granted that if you took the juice of a grape and let it alone, not refrigerating it, it would automatically, in time, turn into alcoholic wine. There are several reasons why this is not true. It takes more than time to make wine. Sometimes people try to defend its use by saying that it must be good because God made it. But, the fact is, God did not make it. Man has learned how to make alcoholic liquors through processes that he has invented. Wine-makers know that one must have the correct amount of water, sugar, and temperature to make wine. Keeping grape juice in a refrigerator would prevent if from fermenting, because the temperature is not right. Likewise, hot, tropical temperature would prevent fermentation.

In ancient days, before we had refrigeration and vacuum-sealing ability, people learned to preserve the juice of the grape without turning it into alcoholic wine. Many people boiled it down into a thick syrup. By doing so, they could preserve it for long periods of time. When they got ready to drink it, they would simply add the water to the consistency desired, in much the same way that we take frozen concentrates and add water. In Bible days, contrary to what many believe, it was not necessary for everyone to drink alcoholic wine as a table beverage.

I recommend the book entitled Bible Wines and the Laws of Fermentation by William Patton (Challenge Press). More than a hundred years ago, this preacher was the only one in his town who believed in total abstinence. He saw that it was necessary to make an extensive study to see what scripture taught. This book is the result of that labor and is the very best thing I have read on the subject.

[Editor's Note: One point of Patton's book is that the making of alcoholic wine requires input from man. It requires the addition of certain additives (though it might be something as simple as sugar) and the control of temperature, etc. The natural processes alone will produce fermentation under certain conditions, but these natural processes, if unaided by man, rapidly move to a vinegar state.The alcoholic beverages industry is very much a man-made thing. Natural process are PERVERTED by man.]

[HappyChristian]

Exactly, Dennis! Thank you. (BTW - this is information I knew before I ever heard of David Cloud...and some of it by personal experience)

[no name joe]

I am a bit curious why it matters whether or not creating beer or wine is a "natural process." There are many things that we do that do not occur naturally... baking bread, cooking meals, driving cars, making furniture, etc. All involve natural processes, but do not occur "naturally" without human intervension. Of course things can ferment in nature, but it is not something one would want to drink, as the taste would be aweful. Wine making is where people use the natural process and refine the process, and control the process to make a very tasty beverage (I acknowledge that not all people like the taste, but many do). The same is for beer. It is really no different than cooking, and involves a bit of science and knowledge to control the process to make a tasty beverage. Baking the bread is the same way. Add just enough yeast, let it rise just the right amount of time, and bake it at the right temperature, and you get a loaf of artisan bread, a tasty treat. If you do not do it properly, the bread does not turn out right. I roast coffee beans. That is not natural. Nowhere in nature will a coffee bean roast naturally. A perfectly roasted bean takes advantage of the decomposition process. Roasting it causes water to evaporate, and then once the water evaporates in the bean's first pop, the bean begins to decompose in roasting chamber, causing a second crack to occur. At this point, the coffee bean is perfectly roasted.

Cooking food takes advantae of the decomposition process. Cooking begins breaking down the food. You don't want to break it down too much or it will not taste right, but just enough heat, presto! A tasty meal. Wine making is absolutely no different.

I fail to see what relevence that has to anything. Can anyone enlighten (or try to enlighten) me? So many things we do do not occur in nature. God gave man a mind to use the world in a responsible manner, and gave us intelligence to learn how to take advantage of natural processes. If it mattered that everything was natural, we would be restireted to a raw foods diet.

Edited May 20, 2011 by kindofblue1977

[heartstrings]

I am a bit curious why it matters whether or not creating beer or wine is a "natural process." There are many things that we do that do not occur naturally... baking bread, cooking meals, driving cars, making furniture, etc. All involve natural processes, but do not occur "naturally" without human intervension. Of course things can ferment in nature, but it is not something one would want to drink, as the taste would be aweful. Wine making is where people use the natural process and refine the process, and control the process to make a very tasty beverage (I acknowledge that not all people like the taste, but many do). The same is for beer. It is really no different than cooking, and involves a bit of science and knowledge to control the process to make a tasty beverage. Baking the bread is the same way. Add just enough yeast, let it rise just the right amount of time, and bake it at the right temperature, and you get a loaf of artisan bread, a tasty treat. If you do not do it properly, the bread does not turn out right. I roast coffee beans. That is not natural. Nowhere in nature will a coffee bean roast naturally. A perfectly roasted bean takes advantage of the decomposition process. Roasting it causes water to evaporate, and then once the water evaporates in the bean's first pop, the bean begins to decompose in roasting chamber, causing a second crack to occur. At this point, the coffee bean is perfectly roasted.

Cooking food takes advantae of the decomposition process. Cooking begins breaking down the food. You don't want to break it down too much or it will not taste right, but just enough heat, presto! A tasty meal. Wine making is absolutely no different.

I fail to see what relevence that has to anything. Can anyone enlighten (or try to enlighten) me? So many things we do do not occur in nature. God gave man a mind to use the world in a responsible manner, and gave us intelligence to learn how to take advantage of natural processes. If it mattered that everything was natural, we would be restireted to a raw foods diet.

Because if it turns out that if fermentation is a natural process, then God created the process.
I just had a thought...what if fermentaion is a result of the "fall". But maybe someone already mentioned that.

[HappyChristian]

It matters in light of heart's initial question. If Christ created fermented wine, that which could contribute to drunkenness (and most certainly would in light of the amount), then He didn't follow biblical principles. God pronounced woe on those who give their neighbor drink that leads to drunkenness...would God then do that very same thing?

That's the point. As I said earlier, alcohol has its place. I believe it can be used in healing process (most particularly of pneumonia and other respiratory bacteria/viruses). I know that you feel that moderate drinking is okay. Moderation is, in fact, a scriptural principle. I'm not completely sold that it applies to alcohol in a social situation, but that isn't actually the point of the thread.

SWIM?

[heartstrings]

It matters in light of heart's initial question. If Christ created fermented wine, that which could contribute to drunkenness (and most certainly would in light of the amount), then He didn't follow biblical principles. God pronounced woe on those who give their neighbor drink that leads to drunkenness...would God then do that very same thing?

That's the point. As I said earlier, alcohol has its place. I believe it can be used in healing process (most particularly of pneumonia and other respiratory bacteria/viruses). I know that you feel that moderate drinking is okay. Moderation is, in fact, a scriptural principle. I'm not completely sold that it applies to alcohol in a social situation, but that isn't actually the point of the thread.

SWIM?

Let me point out, Happy, that I never questioned that Christ didn't follow Biblical principles...And just so everyone else knows, I never even implied that Jesus might have sinned or transgresed in any way. He is Holy and sinlesss. But like I said before, the Lord Jesus Christ did create plants and herbs like opium, coca, and cannabis which do contain powerful mind/behavior-altering substances. I'm sure they were created for limited medicinal or anesthetic purposes, but He created them just the same. How WE choose to use or abuse the physical things of this world is what makes them right or wrong. Am I making sense?

[HappyChristian]

Let me point out, Happy, that I never questioned that Christ didn't follow Biblical principles...And just so everyone else knows, I never even implied that Jesus might have sinned or transgresed in any way. He is Holy and sinlesss. But like I said before, the Lord Jesus Christ did create plants and herbs like opium, coca, and cannabis which do contain powerful mind/behavior-altering substances. I'm sure they were created for limited medicinal or anesthetic purposes, but He created them just the same. How WE choose to use or abuse the physical things of this world is what makes them right or wrong. Am I making sense?

Oh, I know you didn't! I was just using that statement to answer kob - hope it isn't misunderstood. I agree totally that God did create all of those things - and for specific purposes.