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Which wine is the good wine?


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God created alcohol. He created everything. And I want the power to ban. It is important that I receive the power, to protect them. I want to ban. What must I do to be ordained with the power? I want to ban. War Eagle! Hey!

God did not create alcohol. Alcohol is the result of the process of decay. Try again.
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God did not create alcohol. Alcohol is the result of the process of decay. Try again.


Assuming that is how alcohol is made, who do you think created the process of decay? You need to pray. Have you ever accepted Christ as your lord and saviour? You too can be saved. Pm me if you would like to know more about salvation.
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The process of decay is a result of the fall of man. God did not create decay.

All that God created, He created in six days. (Ex. 20:11) At the end of those six days, God saw all that He had created and it was very good. (Gen. 1:31) And the seventh day, God rested from His work. (Gen. 2:2)

I don't need to PM anyone about my Salvation. I was saved thirty years ago when I trusted Christ and what He accomplished for me through His death, burial and resurrection.

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NOt one Scripture quoted shows that. It is clear that drunkeness is wrong. Scriptures quoted say absolutely nothing about totally abstaining. That is rules added to what Scripture teaches, if you are honest with yourself.

Drinking in moderation does not cause a stumbling block. I fail to see how that causes any stumbling block. The scripture dealing with that deals with food and drink sacrificed to idols. Many believers came from pagan religions and previously worshiped those very idols, so eating that food and drinking that wine would cause them to fall back into their pagan worship of idols. Wine that I drink is not sacrificed to idols, and would cause no one to fall into false worship of gods. You are completely taking that Scriputre out of context, and brining your own assumptions into it.

Look back at the Scripture I have quoted. If you are honest with yourself, the BIble never commands totally abstaining from alcohol. You say God tells us to abstain, but not one passage of Scriputre quoted in this thread says that. That is extrapolated after enourmous mental and linguistic gymnastics to get there.

We already know your position as each time you show up here you take the unbiblical, liberal, modernistic position. If you continue to wish to place following your own will above God's you would do a great service to the Lord by not claiming to be a Christian.

How many multiple thousands of folks have become drunkards because they saw someone "respectable" drinking alcohol? How many so-called Christians become drunks after learning that other so-called Christians drink alcohol? How many so-called Christians have caused so many others to stumble to the point they began sitting in bars, drinking away their paychecks and eventually becoming adulterers? The list could go on. One can read current news or news from the past to learn of multiple accounts of such.

Followers of Christ are called to abstain from all appearance of evil. Even most of the unsaved world believes it's wrong for Christians to drink alcohol. Christians drinking alcohol are viewed as not following their religion, as not being good Christians, as setting a bad example...and for good reason! Christians who drink alcohol take on the appearance of evil. Christians who drink alcohol disregard several commands and principles of Scripture.

Followers of Christ are to live by a very high standard; they are not to live as close to the world as they can, and are especially not to live as the world.

As all of us should do when we place our way above the Lord's, you need to examine your salvation. You need to count the cost, as Scripture declares, and see if you are actually willing to pay the price necessary to be a disciple of Christ. I will continue to pray for you.
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Assuming that is how alcohol is made, who do you think created the process of decay? You need to pray. Have you ever accepted Christ as your lord and saviour? You too can be saved. Pm me if you would like to know more about salvation.

Obviously you are here to stir strife and Scripture is clear as how such are to be dealt with.

God created all things. God created processes. Many created things and processes are now corrupt because of sin and the results of the Fall.

Not all things are good or profitable for the Christian. There are several biblical reasons a Chistian should not drink alcohol. Among them, the fact that Christians are "kings and priests" and Scripture declares they are not to drink alcohol. Christians are to present no stumbling block before weaker brothers and others. Christians are to abstain from all appearance of evil.

In taking unbiblical positions here and with the dismal attitude you have displayed, it would be wise if you yourself were to examine your salvation. I will offer up a prayer for you now.
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I am NOT a drinker of any alcoholic beverage. I do not believe my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ promoted drinking fermented wine no matter in excess or not. Whether Christ drank fermented wine or not is of no consequence to me. He probably did, since that would have been a drink (not the only drink) offered to Him at the houses where He had supper. Christ is God and I will not attempt to tell Him what He can or cannot do/did. If you or I had a glass of wine it would not be a sin.

It is obvious the scriptures tell us not to be a drunkard but, I can't find reasonable evidence they require we abstain from fermented wine either. However, it also appears you can't dedicate your life to God and be a drunkard. I don't know how easy it would be to witness to someone with wine on your breath. It might be difficult to allow the Holy Spirit to guide you during witnessing for Christ if you were impaired by wine.

Some day when I have more time I'll study this in greater detail but, it won't be a high priority.

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By the way, the process of fermentation is much more than decay (as far as I can tell this is the only "natural" process). As we've seen, decay without any man in the process will quickly turn to vinegar. There has to be man made processes for fermentation.

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By the way, the process of fermentation is much more than decay (as far as I can tell this is the only "natural" process). As we've seen, decay without any man in the process will quickly turn to vinegar. There has to be man made processes for fermentation.

Excellent observation! If it were only the decay, then man would not have to intervene at all. But we know man does intervene.

Alcohol is the product of man's hands... not God's.
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By the way, the process of fermentation is much more than decay (as far as I can tell this is the only "natural" process). As we've seen, decay without any man in the process will quickly turn to vinegar. There has to be man made processes for fermentation.


You are right. Man, or something else, has to add yeast (I don't know that I would call any part of the process decay any more than I would call 'aging' decay). Regardless, God created the process of fermentation. The psalmist tells us that God gave us wine to make our hearts happy. It's a gift. Should it be abused? No. Should one be a drunkard? No -- that is sin. But, wine obviously has some redeeming quality as Christ used it to perform his first public miracle and Paul prescribed it as a treatment for stomach ailments. We could go round and round with this and two facts will remain true: the liberal use of alcohol is contrary to scripture and the total abstination from alcohol is contrary to scripture. It would appear that, just as with food, alcohol, if to be used at all, is to be used in moderation.

As far as the "appearance of evil argument goes," it only appears evil to those that think it is evil. God made it and everything God made is good. It is man and his abuse of God's creation that is evil.

War Eagle! Hey!
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You are right. Man, or something else, has to add yeast (I don't know that I would call any part of the process decay any more than I would call 'aging' decay). Regardless, God created the process of fermentation. The psalmist tells us that God gave us wine to make our hearts happy. It's a gift. Should it be abused? No. Should one be a drunkard? No -- that is sin. But, wine obviously has some redeeming quality as Christ used it to perform his first public miracle and Paul prescribed it as a treatment for stomach ailments. We could go round and round with this and two facts will remain true: the liberal use of alcohol is contrary to scripture and the total abstination from alcohol is contrary to scripture. It would appear that, just as with food, alcohol, if to be used at all, is to be used in moderation.

As far as the "appearance of evil argument goes," it only appears evil to those that think it is evil. God made it and everything God made is good. It is man and his abuse of God's creation that is evil.

War Eagle! Hey!

Everything God made is good is true. However, today we live in a fallen world where the good that God created has been tainted and is no longer in that good state it was in when created.

As well, even though God is the Creator, that which He created can be used wrongfully and sinfully. God created everything necessary to make guns and bullets yet it's still wrong and a sin to use that gun to murder. Various poisons, inlcuding alcohol, have some purposes yet when wrongly used they are sin.

With regard to the command to abstain from all appearance of evil, even if there is a chance someone may view our action as evil, we are commanded to abstain. This is similar to the command to avoid doing anything that might cause a weaker brother to stumble. In such case, we are commanded to willingly abstain even from that which is lawful, for the benefit of our brother.

The second great commandment, to love others, cannot be fulfilled if we are doing anything that might cause them to think evil of Christ or Christianity; if what we are doing may cause a brother to stumble. We are to be willing even to suffer loss to avoid for the sake of giving no appearance of evil and in taking care not to give occasion for a brother to stumble.

The call to follow Christ is a call to sacrifice ALL for the sake of Christ. Jesus tells us that if we are to be His disciples then we must forsake all, even to the point of giving up everything and everyone; Christ is to come first. Nothing is to come between us and Christ, between us and serving Christ, between us and our brothers.
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We already know your position as each time you show up here you take the unbiblical, liberal, modernistic position. If you continue to wish to place following your own will above God's you would do a great service to the Lord by not claiming to be a Christian.

How many multiple thousands of folks have become drunkards because they saw someone "respectable" drinking alcohol? How many so-called Christians become drunks after learning that other so-called Christians drink alcohol? How many so-called Christians have caused so many others to stumble to the point they began sitting in bars, drinking away their paychecks and eventually becoming adulterers? The list could go on. One can read current news or news from the past to learn of multiple accounts of such.

Followers of Christ are called to abstain from all appearance of evil. Even most of the unsaved world believes it's wrong for Christians to drink alcohol. Christians drinking alcohol are viewed as not following their religion, as not being good Christians, as setting a bad example...and for good reason! Christians who drink alcohol take on the appearance of evil. Christians who drink alcohol disregard several commands and principles of Scripture.

Followers of Christ are to live by a very high standard; they are not to live as close to the world as they can, and are especially not to live as the world.

As all of us should do when we place our way above the Lord's, you need to examine your salvation. You need to count the cost, as Scripture declares, and see if you are actually willing to pay the price necessary to be a disciple of Christ. I will continue to pray for you.


I have not said anything unbliblical. In fact, I quoted extensive scripture to establish that the Bible does not prohibit all use of alcohol. Having a beer does not give a bad witness. I fail to see how it does so. Having a beer or glass of wine does not take on the appearance of evil. How is that? Is eating chicken fried steak and gravy, rolls with butter, and apple pie for dessert setting a bad example because it might lead some into glutony? Glutony is evil, but I don't see any condemnation of eating unhealthy, fatty foods in moderation. I fail to see how alcohol is any differnt. Alcohol in excess, is clearly condemned, as is food in excess. There is simply no support for your position that the Bible authoritativly prohibits all use of alcohol. I can see how some interpret the Bible to say it is best not to partake, but there is not authoritative scripture you can point to.

I guess it is easy for you to say just because I do not agree with you on every point, then my view is incorrect and makes me not a follower of Christ, and that your interpretation is superior.. Mypoint is that this ought not be a divisive issue. How can you not see that reasonable minds can differ on this topic? I have tried to point out the falacy of your argument, but obviously you are blinded by your presupositions. I can tell you that you are reading things that are simply not there in the Bible when you say it condemns all use of alcohol.

To counter your point, I have known many young people driven to excessive drinking because of their upbringing that all alcoholic use is wrong. How many of these people would have been saved heartache if they had been taught to use alcohol in moderation and to use it responsibly instead of binge drinking and using it solely to get drunk? I can say that failing to teach responsibility has led to many young people abusing alcohol. All I am pointing out is there are many issues here, and the Bible is not clear as to any use of alcohol, it is only clear that excessive use is wrong. You can't point me to anything that says that is unbiblical.
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I have not said anything unbliblical. In fact, I quoted extensive scripture to establish that the Bible does not prohibit all use of alcohol. Having a beer does not give a bad witness. I fail to see how it does so. Having a beer or glass of wine does not take on the appearance of evil. How is that? Is eating chicken fried steak and gravy, rolls with butter, and apple pie for dessert setting a bad example because it might lead some into glutony? Glutony is evil, but I don't see any condemnation of eating unhealthy, fatty foods in moderation. I fail to see how alcohol is any differnt. Alcohol in excess, is clearly condemned, as is food in excess. There is simply no support for your position that the Bible authoritativly prohibits all use of alcohol. I can see how some interpret the Bible to say it is best not to partake, but there is not authoritative scripture you can point to.

I guess it is easy for you to say just because I do not agree with you on every point, then my view is incorrect and makes me not a follower of Christ, and that your interpretation is superior.. Mypoint is that this ought not be a divisive issue. How can you not see that reasonable minds can differ on this topic? I have tried to point out the falacy of your argument, but obviously you are blinded by your presupositions. I can tell you that you are reading things that are simply not there in the Bible when you say it condemns all use of alcohol.

To counter your point, I have known many young people driven to excessive drinking because of their upbringing that all alcoholic use is wrong. How many of these people would have been saved heartache if they had been taught to use alcohol in moderation and to use it responsibly instead of binge drinking and using it solely to get drunk? I can say that failing to teach responsibility has led to many young people abusing alcohol. All I am pointing out is there are many issues here, and the Bible is not clear as to any use of alcohol, it is only clear that excessive use is wrong. You can't point me to anything that says that is unbiblical.

What you have done is attempt to twist the Scripture to agree with you. Once again you place your personal preference or opinion above the Word of God. There is absolutely no justification in Scripture for a Christian to drink alcohol while there is an abundance of reasons for the Christian to abstain from alcohol. Any Christian who wishes to abide by the Word of God must abstain from alcohol or at the very least they will be violating the second great commandment and the attendant commandments stemming from that.

Christians are to sacrifice all for the sake of Christ, even giving up our preferences with regard to food and drink, for the sake of Christ and others.
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I have not said anything unbliblical. In fact, I quoted extensive scripture to establish that the Bible does not prohibit all use of alcohol. Having a beer does not give a bad witness. I fail to see how it does so. Having a beer or glass of wine does not take on the appearance of evil. How is that? Is eating chicken fried steak and gravy, rolls with butter, and apple pie for dessert setting a bad example because it might lead some into glutony? Glutony is evil, but I don't see any condemnation of eating unhealthy, fatty foods in moderation. I fail to see how alcohol is any differnt. Alcohol in excess, is clearly condemned, as is food in excess. There is simply no support for your position that the Bible authoritativly prohibits all use of alcohol. I can see how some interpret the Bible to say it is best not to partake, but there is not authoritative scripture you can point to.

I guess it is easy for you to say just because I do not agree with you on every point, then my view is incorrect and makes me not a follower of Christ, and that your interpretation is superior.. Mypoint is that this ought not be a divisive issue. How can you not see that reasonable minds can differ on this topic? I have tried to point out the falacy of your argument, but obviously you are blinded by your presupositions. I can tell you that you are reading things that are simply not there in the Bible when you say it condemns all use of alcohol.

To counter your point, I have known many young people driven to excessive drinking because of their upbringing that all alcoholic use is wrong. How many of these people would have been saved heartache if they had been taught to use alcohol in moderation and to use it responsibly instead of binge drinking and using it solely to get drunk? I can say that failing to teach responsibility has led to many young people abusing alcohol. All I am pointing out is there are many issues here, and the Bible is not clear as to any use of alcohol, it is only clear that excessive use is wrong. You can't point me to anything that says that is unbiblical.


I believe that it is not a question of whether a person drinks or not but rather what is a person's motivation for drinking. Christ calls us to be sober and vigilant. Anyone that has studied the affects of alcohol knows that it hinders reactions and skews our judgement. Most people drink to relax, escape or deal with emotional pain. Jesus is our refuge and strength we find our peace and joy in His presence.
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What you have done is attempt to twist the Scripture to agree with you. Once again you place your personal preference or opinion above the Word of God. There is absolutely no justification in Scripture for a Christian to drink alcohol while there is an abundance of reasons for the Christian to abstain from alcohol. Any Christian who wishes to abide by the Word of God must abstain from alcohol or at the very least they will be violating the second great commandment and the attendant commandments stemming from that.

Christians are to sacrifice all for the sake of Christ, even giving up our preferences with regard to food and drink, for the sake of Christ and others.


I respectfully disagree. Those saying the use of alcohol is completely prohibited are twisting scripture to fit their preconcieved notions. I have not twisted any Scripture, I have just quoted it and pointed out that nothing serves as authoritative, complete prohibition. Jesus serving wine at Cana is a prime example. Those saying it was definitely grape juice go to great lengths to twist what the Bible says to say there is no doubt he served grape juice. The Bible says he turned water into wine. The scriptures I quoted above demonstrate that wine is a sign of blessing from God. Isaac drank wine when he blessed Jaccob and wished that God blesses him with a multitude of corn and wine. In Deutoronomy, blessings are given by giving bread and wine. How, may I ask, is that twisting Scripture?

I am merely pointing out that the Bible, whild it does not tell people that they must drink wine, clearly permits its use at times in moderation. There are very good reasons to abstain, and I respect and honor those who feel called to do so. There are also reasons that using wine in moderation is acceptable and does not violate any commands of God.
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