Members RSS Robot Posted April 27, 2011 Members Share Posted April 27, 2011 April 28, 2011 (David Cloud, Fundamental Baptist Information Service, P.O. Box 610368, Port Huron, MI 48061, 866-295-4143, fbns@wayoflife.org; for instructions about subscribing and unsubscribing or changing addresses, see the information paragraph at the end of the article) -The following is an expanded edition of a reply I gave to a missionary who wrote to express concern about IB churches that are “adapting” CCM. There is a fierce battle raging within the Independent Baptist (IB) movement between those who are committed to the old Bible path and those who are enticed by the new way. When I was saved in 1973 and joined an IB church a couple of months later it was assumed that practically every IB church was committed to the old paths. The SBC was universally condemned among us for its worldliness and theological compromise. A large percentage of IB churches had come out of the Convention and they were plainspoken about its error. Today, a lot of former Ind. Baptists have gone back into the SBC and some of the SBC men are more “conservative” than some Ind. Baptists. In regard to warning ministries, they were pretty common in 70s and 80s. There was the Calvary Contender, F.B.F. News Bulletin, Foundation, Plains Baptist Challenger, The Baptist Challenge, O Timothy, and others. Even the Sword did a bit of serious warning, particularly tearing into the SBC no holds barred.Many of those publications are defunct. Most significantly, there has been a sweeping change in attitude toward a warning ministry. In the past 20 years a large number of IB churches in Canada and the States and around the world, that still profess to be conservative, have moved from appreciating or at least tolerating a warning ministry, to not likening it, to demonizing it. (The pastor who wrote recently to say that he thinks demons led me to write the way I did about Lancaster is only the most glaring example of the demonization.)View the full article Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JerryNumbers Posted April 27, 2011 Members Share Posted April 27, 2011 I believe many years ago if you looked close you would have found some where not as solid as thought to be. Of course over time with changes within churches comes about they drift away, such as Paul Chappell.Sword of the Lord is good about warning of the SBC and its leaders, pastors, yet it seems when it comes to Independent Baptist Churches, its leaders and pastors, they stay pretty quite. Seems they do show respect of person, church. Seems to me they did so in yesterday years as they do now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators HappyChristian Posted April 27, 2011 Administrators Share Posted April 27, 2011 He's spot on in this article. You are right, too, Jerry8. There were churches back then that were pastored by men who were more concerned with the external than the internal, and that created a generation of Christians who didn't (and don't) know how to draw nigh to God. And so they become pastors and cannot shepherd their flock in the way God has laid down in scripture and so their churches become weaker, creating....and the circle continues. However, there were a number of strong IB churches back then, and there are still strong IB churches today - just not as many. Too many are looking to the world and the world's philosophies to "build a church" instead of building a people and letting God build the church. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Brother Rick Posted April 27, 2011 Members Share Posted April 27, 2011 Good article. My first thought was, "Well, young people can come to our Institute - we hate CCM here..." But it was quickly interrupted by my second thought, "Well, no, I'm sure brother Cloud could find SOMETHING wrong with our church." Maybe I'm wrong, I hope I am. I noticed we have a few books by brother Cloud in our bookstore the other day. We have a lot of books by a lot of different authors, including Paul Chappel, Peter Ruckman, John R. Rice, Sam Gipp, Laurence Vance, Josh McDowel, J Vernon McGee, Clarence Larkin, Joshua Harris... the list goes on and on of very different people. I think sometimes if we put them all in the same room they’d kill each other. At least we'll all get along in Heaven and all this fighting (good) and foolishness (bad) will be over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators HappyChristian Posted April 27, 2011 Administrators Share Posted April 27, 2011 Good article. My first thought was, "Well, young people can come to our Institute - we hate CCM here..." But it was quickly interrupted by my second thought, "Well, no, I'm sure brother Cloud could find SOMETHING wrong with our church." Maybe I'm wrong, I hope I am. I noticed we have a few books by brother Cloud in our bookstore the other day. We have a lot of books by a lot of different authors, including Paul Chappel, Peter Ruckman, John R. Rice, Sam Gipp, Laurence Vance, Josh McDowel, J Vernon McGee, Clarence Larkin, Joshua Harris... the list goes on and on of very different people. I think sometimes if we put them all in the same room they’d kill each other. At least we'll all get along in Heaven and all this fighting (good) and foolishness (bad) will be over. FTR - Bro. Cloud would be the first to admit that there are issues in every church. Where he draws the line in recommending churches is where they deviate from the Bible. If your church doesn't, he would likely recommend it. :icon_mrgreen: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Brother Rick Posted April 27, 2011 Members Share Posted April 27, 2011 I hope so, I really like brother Cloud's writings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators HappyChristian Posted April 27, 2011 Administrators Share Posted April 27, 2011 I hope so, I really like brother Cloud's writings. You ought to hear him preach! :thumb: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JerryNumbers Posted April 27, 2011 Members Share Posted April 27, 2011 There is something wrong in every church this side of heaven, because every church is made of of imperfect humans. As the old saying goes, "If I found the perfect church and joined it, it would not longer be perfect." HappyChristian 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 1Timothy115 Posted April 28, 2011 Members Share Posted April 28, 2011 <span style="font:15px Times, Georgia, Courier, serif; ">April 28, 2011 (David Cloud, Fundamental Baptist Information Service, P.O. Box 610368, Port Huron, MI 48061, 866-295-4143, fbns@wayoflife.org; for instructions about subscribing and unsubscribing or changing addresses, see the information paragraph at the end of the article) - </span><span style="font:15px Times, Georgia, Courier, serif; "> </span><span style="font:15px Times, Georgia, Courier, serif; ">The following is an expanded edition of a reply I gave to a missionary who wrote to express concern about IB churches that are “adapting” CCM. There is a fierce battle raging within the Independent Baptist (IB) movement between those who are committed to the old Bible path and those who are enticed by the new way. When I was saved in 1973 and joined an IB church a couple of months later it was assumed that practically every IB church was committed to the old paths. The SBC was universally condemned among us for its worldliness and theological compromise. A large percentage of IB churches had come out of the Convention and they were plainspoken about its error. Today, a lot of former Ind. Baptists have gone back into the SBC and some of the SBC men are more “conservative” than some Ind. Baptists. In regard to warning ministries, they were pretty common in 70s and 80s. There was the Calvary Contender, F.B.F. News Bulletin, Foundation, Plains Baptist Challenger, The Baptist Challenge, O Timothy, and others. Even the Sword did a bit of serious warning, particularly tearing into the SBC no holds barred. Many of those publications are defunct. Most significantly, there has been a sweeping change in attitude toward a warning ministry. In the past 20 years a large number of IB churches in Canada and the States and around the world, that still profess to be conservative, have moved from appreciating or at least tolerating a warning ministry, to not likening it, to demonizing it. (The pastor who wrote recently to say that he thinks demons led me to write the way I did about Lancaster is only the most glaring example of the demonization.)</span>View the full article Movement? Movement? "Replying to Changes Within the Independent Baptist Movement" How did I know he would get back to his personal war with Lancaster. "Movement," poor choice of words and I'm not in the camp he describes with derision. Is his paint brush any less broad than 20/20's? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators HappyChristian Posted April 28, 2011 Administrators Share Posted April 28, 2011 Movement? Movement? "Replying to Changes Within the Independent Baptist Movement" How did I know he would get back to his personal war with Lancaster. "Movement," poor choice of words and I'm not in the camp he describes with derision. Is his paint brush any less broad than 20/20's? His choice of wording is accurate, Dave. It is a movement, not a denomination. And it isn't a personal war with Lancaster. Do your own checking on their music...there is a college there, one which independent Baptists send their children to. And more than one of those has been influenced by the music to join the emergent church movement (yep, there's that word again...but movement is exactly what it is). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JerryNumbers Posted April 28, 2011 Members Share Posted April 28, 2011 LuAnna is absolutely correct. Lot's of pastors are leading their churches into the world for they know they can capture more members, larger membership means at least 3 things for those in the leadership.1. More money2. more power3. more prestige1Jo 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.Each one of these tears at the heart of Christians, yet even more so for the leadership positions. How many Christian leaders are working, hoping, for the position held by Mr. Graham for more than 50 years? Like Mr. Graham, they will trample the Gospel of Jesus under foot {hoping} to get it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Brother Rick Posted April 28, 2011 Members Share Posted April 28, 2011 I think the word movement is the best word to describe the IFBers. We certainly can't get agree and get along enough to be a full-blown denomination, but left to ourselves most of us are trying to do the same thing. We just all think each other are wrong, or something like that. It's amazing to me how well IFBers can get along until they mention what school they went to or who they learned most of their stuff from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators HappyChristian Posted April 28, 2011 Administrators Share Posted April 28, 2011 I think the word movement is the best word to describe the IFBers. We certainly can't get agree and get along enough to be a full-blown denomination, but left to ourselves most of us are trying to do the same thing. We just all think each other are wrong, or something like that. It's amazing to me how well IFBers can get along until they mention what school they went to or who they learned most of their stuff from. It isn't lack of agreement (see, I had to disagree ) that keeps the IFB from being a denomination, it is the lack of a headquarters, and the belief that God works through local, independent churches. That "I" tells it all: independent. I don't think "all" thinks that each other is wrong...although there is a lot of disagreement about things. If those things are non-essentials, that's fine. But if it is a disagreement over something the Bible teaches, then those in the right would be those who stand firmly with the Bible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JerryNumbers Posted April 29, 2011 Members Share Posted April 29, 2011 If someone wants and outfit with earthly headquarters, the RCC would fit the bill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 1Timothy115 Posted April 29, 2011 Members Share Posted April 29, 2011 (edited) His choice of wording is accurate, Dave. It is a movement, not a denomination. And it isn't a personal war with Lancaster. Do your own checking on their music...there is a college there, one which independent Baptists send their children to. And more than one of those has been influenced by the music to join the emergent church movement (yep, there's that word again...but movement is exactly what it is). I don't or won't consider an adherence to Biblical authority and autonomy of the local church a movement. Ind. Baptist is a title for those who hold to Biblical authority and autonomy...it is a title for those who hold those tenants. He titled this "Changes W/I the Independent Baptist Movement." This school, et. al. are moving, I'll grant him that but Independent Baptists aren't going anywhere. So, people are moving away from being Independent Baptist and into emergent church/seeker sensitive church CCM outlets. Again, IBs or IFBs aren't moving. We can disagree nicely...right? I almost forgot...where did denomination come from? Oh, and....it is a war for him...he keeps coming back to battle it. It may be a good war for him but its war no less. :) Edited April 29, 2011 by 1Tim115 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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