Rapture

[LindaR]

The Bible is my sole authority, not Way of Life Encyclopedia written by men. Prove to me from the Bible that those are different resurrections (1 Thes 4:16 and John 5:28-29).

If the Bible is your sole authority, then why don't you "rightly divide" the word of truth? There is not just one general resurrection.

[LindaR]

I would agree with you that the church won't pass through the great tribulation...but we do go through tribulation, and Foxe's is simply a record of that. That was my point, and I believe his in reference to the book. Not that he was correcting the Bible.

The tribulation period is a time of God's wrath and judgment. We have trials and tribulations in this present world, but that is nothing compared to what God will pour out on the Christ rejecting world during the 7 year tribulation period. The last half (three and a half years) is more intense than the first three and a half years...also called the "time of Jacob's trouble (Jeremiah 30:7) The entire period corresponds to the 70 weeks of Daniel 9 (vs. 24-27).

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Edited February 10, 2012 by LindaR

[Brother Rick]

John 5:24-29, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”

So this is a common passage to teach a general resurrection at the Great White Throne judgment, which eventually leads to a general judgment, which leads to an allegorizing of the entire book of Revelation. In other words, this is one of the passages that are used by non-dispensationalist to generalize everything and in the end make a general mess of things.

Here’s what is going on here. In verse 24 Jesus is talking about spiritual resurrection, those that “hear” his word are passed from death unto life. At the end of the passage, we see in verse 29 a resurrection of the just and the unjust (Acts 24:15, Dan. 12:1-2). The Bible says that “the hour is coming” in which all of this will occur.

So should we simply believe because the Bible says “hour” here that this is to all occur in one hour? Non-dispensationalist have rested much of their theological position on not merely the word “hour” in this passage, but their definition of the word “hour.”

So does the word “hour” always mean sixty minutes, 3,600 seconds? Does it ever mean anything else? What about the phrase “that was their finest hour”? Does that refer to sixty minutes, or does it refer to a generic period of time?

You can already see where I’m going here. A Preterist will demand the most strict and over-literal interpretation of Rev. 1:3, and in turn will generalize the rest of the book of Revelation, and anywhere else in the Bible that speaks of end time events that have not been fulfilled. This is all done ignoring other passages in the Bible where God speaks of things being at hand or occurring in “a little while” (such as the birth of Christ in Hag. 2:6-7 which was written 500 years before Christ was born).

Other non-dispensationalists will demand the same thing here, without considering other Scriptures. They will insist that Jesus meant what they mean whenever they use the word “hour.” The book of John was written a really long time ago, and considering that the word “hour” today doesn’t always mean a literal sixty minutes, it would be irresponsible to cram all of Bible prophecy into this verse without looking at how John uses the word hour at other times:

John 2:4, “Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.”

John 4:21, “Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.”

John 4:23, “But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.”

John 7:30, “Then they sought to take him: but no man laid hands on him, because his hour was not yet come.”

John 8:20, “These words spake Jesus in the treasury, as he taught in the temple: and no man laid hands on him; for his hour was not yet come.”

Rev. 3:3, “Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.”

Rev. 3:10, “Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.”

Those are seven examples where the apostle John uses the word “hour” and it clearly represents “time.” Obviously no one thinks that John never used the word “hour” to represent a literal “hour,” so to be fair let’s look at some examples where that occurs:

John 4:6, “Now Jacob's well was there. Jesus therefore, being wearied with his journey, sat thus on the well: and it was about the sixth hour.”

John 4:52, “Then enquired he of them the hour when he began to amend. And they said unto him, Yesterday at the seventh hour the fever left him.”

John 11:9, “Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.”

John 19:14, “And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!”

Rev. 9:15, “And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.”

Rev. 18:10, “Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.”

Rev. 18:17, “For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,”

Rev. 8:1, “And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.”

So this should prove that the word “hour” can go either way: “time” or literal hour. So how does one go about distinguishing the difference? A serious student of the Bible should be careful before jumping to conclusions on something like this. Let’s look at the passage that is up for debate again:

John 5:28-29, “Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”

It’s best to examine the verse based upon two things:

1. Context.
2. Subject matter.

Okay, so let’s examine the immediate context.

John 5:24-29, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”

What a minute, look at verse 25 again:

John 5:25, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.”

Right there in the immediate context Jesus is using the word “hour” to represent not merely one unit of sixty minutes, but literally 2,000 years of time! That passage speaks of the spiritual resurrection that happens every time a person trusts Christ and becomes a believer. Just a couple breaths of air later Jesus uses the word “hour” again to describe the resurrection. Jesus could just as easily be using the term to describe time as he could a literal specific “hour,” if not more so.

Therefore, to clearly place the interpretation of the passage we would need to ask one simple question:

“Does the rest of Scripture support the idea that there is one isolated resurrection in which everyone is resurrected within the same sixty minute period?”

The answer is simple: no, Scripture does not support that and neither does history.

Matthew 27:51-53, "And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52) And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53) And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."

Daniel and Jesus both spoke of a resurrection of the just and the unjust as being a future event, and yet many saints have already resurrected and there are many that still will. By admitting that there is yet a future resurrection the non-dispensationalist has already proved himself wrong on the passage in question!

The resurrection of the just must contain at least two specific times of resurrection.

Edited February 10, 2012 by Rick Schworer

[Invicta]

Rick,

I have no idea what you are writing about.

I consider the book of Revelation to be a book of signs, not allegories, as is says soin verse one. When scripture gives a sign or symbol, to explain a truth it uses the same sign or symbol to reveal the same thruth in other places. There would be no point in giving the interpretaion in one place if the same sign is used for something different in another place.

Edited February 10, 2012 by Invicta

[Brother Rick]

The reason I used Revelation was becuase it was written by John, so as to consistant with how John uses the word "hour" in his writings. "Hour" can mean "an hour" or "a time."

In John 5:28-29 it clearly means "time" in a generic sense. Read the post again.

[Covenanter]

Rick - God is able to raise the dead, some of who have resumed their mortal life. e.g. those Jesus, Elijah & Elisha raised. He is also able to translate mortals to immortality, e.g. Enoch & Elijah. Raising the dead saints from Calvary is a surprising incident, but we do not know if they returned to their graves (like Samuel) or were translated to heaven. I suspect that if they had resumed a mortal life, we would have heard more about them.

However NONE of these can be the prophesied resurrection.

For all the hours you have spent on explaining away the text, I suggest we read it again:

28 Marvel n

ot

at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth;

Notice: all that are in the graves shall hear his voice - a literal reading is that at a particular moment (aka hour, or time) there will be a general resurrection of good & evil, & a great separation.

[Brother Rick]

You have ignored context and the weight of Scripture to support your upside-down view - par for the course.

Edited February 10, 2012 by Rick Schworer

[HappyChristian]

The tribulation period is a time of God's wrath and judgment. We have trials and tribulations in this present world, but that is nothing compared to what God will pour out on the Christ rejecting world during the 7 year tribulation period. The last half (three and a half years) is more intense than the first three and a half years...also called the "time of Jacob's trouble (Jeremiah 30:7) The entire period corresponds to the 70 weeks of Daniel 9 (vs. 24-27).

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

I wasn't arguing that truth, Linda. I was simply explaining the reason behind (why I think, anyway) invicta referenced Foxe's. No-one can say those Christians didn't face tribulation. No, it doesn't compare to the great tribulation (like I said earlier), but it sure is more than we've gone through! As you pointed out, Christians won't face God's wrath...

[Invicta]

You have ignored context and the weight of Scripture to support your upside-down view - par for the course.

I thought Ian was agreeing with your interpretation of "hour".

[Invicta]

"In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world, John 16.33."

The 100,000 - 200,000 christians who suffered death at the hands of the inquisition and other Roman tortures certainly had tribulation.

The teaching that the church will be taken out of the world before the tribulation is a non biblical doctrine.

[Invicta]

You know I don't agree with you brother, but I have to admit it makes so much more sense that the tribulation was Roman (pagan and Catholic) persecution than one isolated incident in 70 A.D.

I believe the man of sin was revealed in Paul's day, not exactly how you do, but close. I believe that in Paul's day the man of sin was revealed to be the position of the Roman Emperor, which would eventually morph into the position of the Pope. The Babylon of Revelation is Rome, and the Antichrist is the position of the pope. In this, you and I agree somewhat. I believe there is a future Antichrist that will be the final man of sin, who will also be revealed to be the son of perdition at the middle of the Tribulation when it all hits the fan.

I just got a review on my Revelation book, and the person reviewing it said he was enjoying it until he hit the middle and was ambushed by what I believe about the RCC. Not all dispensationalists are kind to the bloody whore, many of them still call her what she is, especially the dispensationalists that are King James only.

Rick, you teach that there is one great tribulation. I di=o not believe that. The war of AD 66-70 was agreat tribulation on the Jews. The was never was "such as" that. The other tribulations mentioned, more than one, are I believe, on the true believers, under Rome pagan and Rome papal, under Mohammad, under hinduism, and atheism. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

[Brother Rick]

I thought Ian was agreeing with your interpretation of "hour".

If he was, he was still missing the point that the resurrection of the just has several phases to it - with one of them being Christ and the firstfruits after the cross. What Christ was basically saying was that there will come a time when everyone will rise again, either as just or unjust - not one isolated event.

That is consistant with the rest of Scripture, including paul's epistles and the end of Revelation, history that followed Christ's words, and the definition of the word "hour." Edited February 10, 2012 by Rick Schworer

[Brother Rick]

Rick, you teach that there is one great tribulation. I di=o not believe that. The war of AD 66-70 was agreat tribulation on the Jews. The was never was "such as" that. The other tribulations mentioned, more than one, are I believe, on the true believers, under Rome pagan and Rome papal, under Mohammad, under hinduism, and atheism. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

The Babylon of Revelation is said to be responsible for all the blood of the saints, not just the ones killed by Rome. This makes sense when you see that all these religions that have persecuted the church started with Nimrod and Babel. They all have the same daddy: the mighty hunter before the Lord.

[anime4christ]

If the Bible is your sole authority, then why don't you "rightly divide" the word of truth? There is not just one general resurrection.

Just because you divide differently from me doesn't automatically mean that I'm the one who's wrongly dividing. We need to look at the evidence instead of throwing these kind of attacks out. This proves zilch.

[anime4christ]

Rick, I wasn't even thinking about the word hour in that passage as meaning the resurrection has a limit of 60 minutes to complete. The resurrection will be instantaneous. I'm reading the passage as a whole, not getting stuck on one word as dispensationalists often tend to. I try to look at the passage asking the question "what is THIS passage saying?" rather than "does the fifth word in this verse mean the same thing as the 378th time this word appears in the scriptures?" The latter is a very strange way to study and divide the word.