Rapture

[LindaR]

A word of advice, sister. This is a KJVO forum, and going to the Greek is not considered an authoritative way of proving anything. If you can't prove it in King James, you can't prove it. Certainly not to me or most of the people around here.

Are you speaking to me? I only use the KJV....I don't "correct" the KJV as Invicta implies.

[Brother Rick]

Not you, sister.

Are you speaking to me? I only use the KJV....I don't "correct" the KJV as Invicta implies.

No, not you sister.

[Invicta]

Same answer applies to both.

[LindaR]

Same answer applies to both.

Same answer applies to both of what? I didn't correct (and never have corrected) the KJV. By saying that the English word rapture comes from the Latin word raptus isn't "correcting" the KJV. I never said the word "rapture" was in the KJV either...the KJV uses the term "caught up" (harpazo, in the Greek) and has the same meaning as the Latin word raptus. Edited February 7, 2012 by LindaR

[Gabrielle A]

A word of advice, sister. This is a KJVO forum, and going to the Greek is not considered an authoritative way of proving anything. If you can't prove it in King James, you can't prove it. Certainly not to me or most of the people around here.

Thanks for the heads up!

I thought I was using the KJV? I will be more careful in future...if I have not...

I definitely believe that 1 Thess 4:15-17 is the same event as Matthew 24:30-31 and Mark 13:26-27....

PS: I normally use the NKJV...

Bless ya! Edited February 7, 2012 by Gabrielle A

[JerryNumbers]

Thank you!

I would firstly like to make the point that salvation is not dependent on whether someone believes or does not believe in the Church being "Raptured."


Blessings!!!

And who stated ones salvation depended on that?

Would you mind telling us of what faith you are, what church you attend?

[JerryNumbers]

Same answer applies to both of what? I didn't correct (and never have corrected) the KJV. By saying that the English word rapture comes from the Latin word raptus isn't "correcting" the KJV. I never said the word "rapture" was in the KJV either...the KJV uses the term "caught up" (harpazo, in the Greek) and has the same meaning as the Latin word raptus.

Amen!

Many confuse the two, & that causes them more trouble than anything, plus after someone has taught them that, its nearly impossible to who they their error.

Below is a portion of one of my sermons on this matter

Jesus’ & His 2 Comings
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

Introduction:
1. Jesus’ second coming is in two phases, we all get a bit confused about this at times-
A. At first Jesus comes back for His own, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 & 1 Corinthians 15:51-57-
B. Later on Jesus comes back with His own to take His rightful place on David’s throne, Isaiah 9:7 page 721-
C. The first phase of His coming is commonly called “The Rapture of the Church”-
1. While the 2nd phase is commonly called the “Revelations”-

The verses we just read is speaking about when Jesus’ comes in the air for his own, we commonly refer to as the rapture-
We could also read about it in 1 Corinthians 15:51-57, page 1227-

2. While reading thru the Bible there seems to be some contradictions, that can only be understood if one understands the 2 phases of Jesus’ coming-

For instance, Revelations 16:15 reads:
“Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepth his garments, least he walk naked, and they see his shame.”

Them in Revelations 1:7 we find:
“Behold, He cometh with the clouds; and every eye shall see Him, and they also which pierced Him and all kindards shall wail because of Him, Even so, Amen.”

A. Revelations 16:15 “Behold I come as a thief: 1st Phase: Jesus’ comes for His own-

B. Revelations 1:7 “every eye shall see Him: 2nd phase, Jesus comes with His own-

Another seemingly contradiction is
1 Thessalonians 3:13
“To this end He may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.“
&
1 Thessalonians 4:16
“For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God; and the dead in Christ shall first rise: Them we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”

C. It is impossible for Christ to come with His saints unless He firs comes for His saints-
{1st phase of His coming: He comes for His saints}

{In the 2nd phase: He is coming with His saints}
{the 1st phase he comes to reward His saints}
In the 2nd phase He comes to rule}

{in the 1st phase He comes before the tribulation}
{in the 2nd phase He comes after the tribulations}

{in the 1st phase He delivers us from the tribulations}
{in the 2nd phase He puts an end to the tribulation}

{in the 2nd phase He comes as a bridegroom for His bride}
{in the 2nd phase He comes as King of Kings, Lord of Lords}

In the first phase He comes to raise the dead in Christ}
{in the 2nd phase He comes to destroy the anti-christ}

3. Let us take notice of Hebrews 9:28
“So Christ once offer to bear the sins of many, and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin unto salvation.”

A. Notice it say, “unto them that look”-
1. Believers will see Christ-
2. Unbelievers will not see Christ-

4. When are the tribulations?
A. Thru the book of revelations it does not give a time for the ‘rapture of the church’ so most people think this, the rapture take place right before the tribulations-

B. In Revelations 1:19 Jesus tells John to write: “Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter.”

1. ‘…the things which I hast seen…’ refers to the vision he saw in Revelations 1

2. ‘…the things which are…’ seem to be a reference to Revelations 2&3, which many believe to mean the church age. When the church age is finished Christ will take the church out of the world-

3. ‘…the thing which shall be hereafter…’, after the church age which he spoke of in Revelations 2&3-

5. But in Revelations 4:1 the heaven open up.
“After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must happen hereafter.”

A. The heavens opens, the church goes up, the Rapture, the things that must happen hereafter, the tribulations-

B. Now from this time Revelations 4:1 thru Revelations 19:11 the church is not mentioned in the tribulations period, but in Revelations 19:11 the church comes back with Christ-

Let us look at something else.
Revelations 3:10 “Because I have kept thy word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.”

A. The word temptation means: adversity, affliction, trouble, which most people seem to think refers to the ‘Tribulation Period’-

Now let us look at Thessalonians 2:1
“Now we beech you brother, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,”

‘by our gathering unto Him…’ is referring to the rapture of the church-

And verse 2 continues:
“That ye not soon be shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither in spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that day of Christ is at hand.”

That day of Christ, is connected with judgment-
By letter, there had been a false letter sent to Thessalonica with Paul’s signature on it telling them they were already in the period of God’s judgment, the Tribulation period-
Paul assures them this will not come till after the rapture-

[Gabrielle A]

And who stated ones salvation depended on that?
Would you mind telling us of what faith you are, what church you attend?

Your tone in this post comes across very offensive sir and I would ask you to treat me with the same respect that you treat others here.

My Church attendance has nothing to do with the OP and yes, I do mind and I don't take kindly to forum bullying...

I believe that 1Thessalonians 4 is the same event found in Matthew 24 and Mark 13. I am just searching that information out at the moment...back soon... ^_^ Edited February 7, 2012 by Gabrielle A

[Salyan]

OSAS - Once saved always saved? But that's not a theory, that's a Scriptural fact based on God's promises. I don't think any of the IFB's here would believe in the UR doctrine.

Remember, we're not an online church here, so we don't necessarily believe the same thing!

For me, I don't have time to do a big study here, but I believe in a pre-trib rapture because I consider the tribulation period to be the time of God's wrath, and as believers, God hath no appointed us unto wrath. That being said, I won't throw away my confidence if I happen to be wrong. :)

Edited February 7, 2012 by salyan

[JerryNumbers]

Your tone in this post comes across very offensive sir and I would ask you to treat me with the same respect that you treat others here.

My Church attendance has nothing to do with the OP and yes, I do mind and I don't take kindly to forum bullies...

I believe that 1Thessalonians 4 is the same event found in Matthew 24 and Mark 13. I am just searching that information out at the moment...back soon...

Offensive? Did I not ask, "Would you mind telling?"

OK, I take it that your ashamed of your faith & the church you attend.

Plus I am offender by you posting this to me, "Your tone in this post comes across very offensive sir and I would ask you to treat me with the same respect that you treat others here."

PS. If I had thought at the time I would have placed a please before the would. Plus, I am treating you like others, I have asked others this same very question.

[swathdiver]

PS: I normally use the NKJV...

Ma'am don't you know that the New King James is a corrupt translation? All the changes and "improvements" supposedly made from the King James come from the text of Wescott and Hort, two Christ-denying socialists.

Nearly all liberals and apostates use bibles based on this error-laden text which changes the Word of God making it the word of man and therefore useless.

[Gabrielle A]

^_^ I also use the KJV, the Amplified, the NASB and the ESV

Bless ya and I'm still in search mode...


Hi Salyan!
I like what anime4christ said in post #47

Most of us here believe in some form of "OSAS", but some believe you can be saved, fall away and live like the world, die in that way, and still be saved because you were saved back then. Others of us believe such a person most likely never was truly saved because salvation is accompanied by fruit. On the pretrib rapture, a lot here believe it, but a good number of us don't because it is not taught in the bible. Those who believe it is must admit that even in their theory it is implicitly taught. Hence this thread.

Blessings!!! Edited February 7, 2012 by Gabrielle A

[swathdiver]

I also use the KJV, the Amplified, the NASB and the ESV

Those translations are even worse. Are you a modern-charismatic attending a church with a live rock-n-roll band?

[Gabrielle A]

no....

[Brother Rick]

Hey sister, if you're searching for the truth when it comes to other versions, you might find this video helpful.

http://vimeo.com/33007818