Rapture

[Brother Rick]

God did NOT change programmes. Christ was crucified from the foundation of the world.

I agree brother, I never said He wasn't. Christ was going to be crucified one way or another.

As far as whether or not God has alternate programs available, it all depends on whether or not God's invatations are sincere or not. It depends on whether or not the God of the Bible forces people to do things, or if He gives them the ability to choose on their own. I believe God means what He says when He says that He is not willing that any should perish. It is against the will of God for people to reject Him and go to Hell. God doesn't force people to reject Him, and Jesus promised that if He would be lifted up all men would be drawn unto Him.

If God's offer of a Messiah to Israel was not sincere, and regardless of how Jesus Christ felt about it in the end of Matthew 23 God the Father was still going to force Israel to reject the Messiah, then of course there was no alternate plan. Edited March 12, 2012 by Rick Schworer

[John81]

I agree brother, I never said He wasn't. Christ was going to be crucified one way or another.

As far as whether or not God has alternate programs available, it all depends on whether or not God's invatations are sincere or not. It depends on whether or not the God of the Bible forces people to do things, or if He gives them the ability to choose on their own. I believe God means what He says when He says that He is not willing that any should perish. It is against the will of God for people to reject Him and go to Hell. God doesn't force people to reject Him, and Jesus promised that if He would be lifted up all men would be drawn unto Him.

If God's offer of a Messiah to Israel was not sincere, and regardless of how Jesus Christ felt about it in the end of Matthew 23 God the Father was still going to force Israel to reject the Messiah, then of course there was no alternate plan.

God knows the beginning from the end. From the foundation of the world He knew what each of us would do. Even knowing that, He could offer us what He knew we would reject while not causing a problem with His plan.

If I give my child two options, knowing they will choose X rather than Y, and I've planned things accordingly, that doesn't make the offer invalid and it certainly doesn't mean I have to force my child to choose A. The offer is sincere even though I know they won't accept it.

Certainly if a mere human can do such, God who is infinitely beyond our capabilities, can do the same and do so perfectly and in advance of all things.

[Brother Rick]

I agree with that, John.

[John81]

I agree with that, John.

Isn't it so cool when we are in agreement!

[Brother Rick]

Hey bro, I was trying to find that David Jeremiah book that you talked about as being a great explanation of the pre-trib/pre-mill position. I found the Escape the Night book, but it doesn't look like a Bible study book as much as a novel, like Tim LaHaye's Left Behind.

Can you give me a link? I'm really interested in this book that you spoke of.

[Covenanter]

1. The things following the 70 weeks have not been fulfilled.
2. The things that are supposed to happen during the 70th week have not occurred.

The above are facts that have not been refuted and they prove that the 70 weeks have not been fulfilled.

The above are not "facts" but opinions based on the disp paradigm that God was dealing with Israel until the nation rejected its Messiah, & that God will force the Jews to accept their Messiah by a future tribulation during which most of them will be killed. They will then enjoy a millennium of enforced blessing or suffer being struck by the Lord's rod of iron.

The x-factor is the fact that God changed programs and started dealing primarily with the Gentiles and instituted the church. This was a previously unknown mystery revealed only to Paul. This is why God chose to delay the 70th week, because it concerns Israel - not the Gentiles.

From the outset of his dealings with Abraham, God declared his purpose of blessing all families, all nations, through him & his Seed. A literal reading of the 70 weeks prophecy is seen to run for 70x7 years until the Jewish leaders rejected the Apostolic Gospel & began serious persecution. There were, of course, many thousands of Jews converted during Apostolic times, but these believers were persecuted & scattered, so that Israel as a nation rejected its Messiah.

Now what is the "previously unknown mystery revealed only to Paul?" The revealed mystery is spoken of by Paul explicitly in Ephesians. Other references do not change the revelation:

Eph. 1:

9

Having made known u

nt

o us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

10

That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, b

ot

h which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

3:

3

How that by revelation he made known u

nt

o me the mystery; (as I wr

ot

e afore in few words,

4

Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5

Which in

ot

her ages was n

ot

made known u

nt

o the sons of men, as it is now revealed u

nt

o his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6

That the Ge

nt

iles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

....

8

U

nt

o me, who am less than the least of all sai

nt

s, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Ge

nt

iles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

9

And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10

To the i

nt

e

nt

that now u

nt

o the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11

According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

The mystery is thus That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel. i.e. It is the perfect unity of Jew & Gentile in the church, the body of Christ. Under the old covenant, Gentiles could become proselyte Jews by circumcision. Under the new covenant, both Jew & Gentile were accepted by repentance, faith & baptism into Christ. Jews were not in the NC by descent from Abraham but by being in Christ.

There is no suggestion in the NT that that one body would be divided, even rightly divided. There is one redeemed people of God. The whole multiple rapture, heavenly people & earthly people in the future millennium scenario is a cunningly devised fable.

In the present millennium, the heavenly people are the dead believers (souls, Rev. 20:4) while we are the earthly people. I am very puzzled by the insistence that amils do not read the Scriptures literally, when disps invent a fantastic future scenario.

Edited March 12, 2012 by Covenanter

[John81]

Hey bro, I was trying to find that David Jeremiah book that you talked about as being a great explanation of the pre-trib/pre-mill position. I found the Escape the Night book, but it doesn't look like a Bible study book as much as a novel, like Tim LaHaye's Left Behind.

Can you give me a link? I'm really interested in this book that you spoke of.

http://www.davidjeremiah.org/shop/p-3051-escape-the-coming-night-book.aspx

[Covenanter]

http://www.davidjere...night-book.aspx

I note: Forward by Tim LaHaye.

I am afraid the fantasy writing of Tim & Jerry casts doubt on the credibility of David Jeremiah.

His 12 point prophecy panorama seems to have little relevance to our lives in the present Gospel Age. Surely the teaching of Jesus & his Apostles & their teaching concerning OT prophecy is primarily for the present age, yet David Jeremiah & his ilk move it all into a fantasy world. They make their fortune from book & dvd sales but are robbing the simple believer of the Word for us to live by.

He may explain his teaching in terms of Scripture, & sound convincing, BUT as he is using the disp paradigm, he doesn't give proper weight to covenant theology which runs throughout Scripture. It's the new covenant - the everlasting covenant ratified by Jesus' blood - that saves. Disp "theology" saves no-one.

[John81]

I just received a book in the mail which takes a different view of all this but I'll either have to wait awhile until I finish the book I'm reading which is a good sized book, or take a break from the larger book to read this one sooner.

The author was pre-trib/pre-mil until about a year ago. As he was studying through the end times and second coming of Jesus, he says the Holy Spirit opened his eyes to things he had never noticed before. I don't recall exactly what he believes now, but I suppose reading this book will remind me and also explain why he believes as he does now.

I may set aside my other book and read this one, it's not a long book and if I get some decent reading time it won't take long to read it.

[JerryNumbers]

I note: Forward by Tim LaHaye.

I am afraid the fantasy writing of Tim & Jerry casts doubt on the credibility of David Jeremiah.

His 12 point prophecy panorama seems to have little relevance to our lives in the present Gospel Age. Surely the teaching of Jesus & his Apostles & their teaching concerning OT prophecy is primarily for the present age, yet David Jeremiah & his ilk move it all into a fantasy world. They make their fortune from book & dvd sales but are robbing the simple believer of the Word for us to live by.

He may explain his teaching in terms of Scripture, & sound convincing, BUT as he is using the disp paradigm, he doesn't give proper weight to covenant theology which runs throughout Scripture. It's the new covenant - the everlasting covenant ratified by Jesus' blood - that saves. Disp "theology" saves no-one.

I believe your mistaken, I have not said nothing for nor against David Jeremiah. To be honest I'm not very fond of the man, & never bought his books.

[Wilchbla]

The bottomline is that if the church will goes the great tribulation then there is no such thing as eternal security because anyone who takes the mark of the beast will burn in hell. And please don't tell me that a "true" Christian wouldn't take the mark. I know of tons of "true" Christians who can't drive by a Burger King without succumbing to the temptation.

[JerryNumbers]

The bottom line is, Jesus' Church, & His brothers & sister will not go though the tribulations, yet they will be people saved during that time. There will be false professors of faith that will take the mark of the beast.

Just because someone claims to be Christian, does not mean they truly are, in fact the majority of people that claim Jesus as Savior, are lost, & will spend eternity in the lake of fire, which is the 2nd death.

[John81]

It would be impossible for a true Christian to take the mark because a true Christian already has the mark (seal) of the Holy Ghost upon them.

It's also possible for one to have great difficulty giving up their morning donut and high-calorie coffee blend but be resolute to stand for Christ when pressed to deny Him.

In any event, the Great Tribulation is only the last 3 1/2 years of what is called the 7 year tribulation, so a mid-trib rapture would remove Christians from that.

Also, it should be noted that Christians in various times and places have faced severe persecution and yet stood firm for Christ. Consider the untold numbers of Christians who suffered burning at the stake, boiling in oil, being attacked and eaten alive by lions, suffering great torture on the rack, having fingernails ripped out, tongues cut off, being disemboweled, watching their families torutered and killed, etc. Through all of this, true Christians stood firm for Christ. There is no reason to believe God's true people could not stand firm even if they were in the Great Tribulation.

It should also be remembered that many Christians may face severe trials, tribulations and persecutions in our own lifetimes. In fact, some Christians around the world already are...beatings, torture, rape, murder, execution...all for their faith in Christ, and it's possible even in this country such could happen. The time to prepare is now. If we wait until faced with such we are much more likely to stumble.

[Eric Stahl]

It would be impossible for a true Christian to take the mark because a true Christian already has the mark (seal) of the Holy Ghost upon them.

It's also possible for one to have great difficulty giving up their morning donut and high-calorie coffee blend but be resolute to stand for Christ when pressed to deny Him.

In any event, the Great Tribulation is only the last 3 1/2 years of what is called the 7 year tribulation, so a mid-trib rapture would remove Christians from that.

Also, it should be noted that Christians in various times and places have faced severe persecution and yet stood firm for Christ. Consider the untold numbers of Christians who suffered burning at the stake, boiling in oil, being attacked and eaten alive by lions, suffering great torture on the rack, having fingernails ripped out, tongues cut off, being disemboweled, watching their families torutered and killed, etc. Through all of this, true Christians stood firm for Christ. There is no reason to believe God's true people could not stand firm even if they were in the Great Tribulation.

It should also be remembered that many Christians may face severe trials, tribulations and persecutions in our own lifetimes. In fact, some Christians around the world already are...beatings, torture, rape, murder, execution...all for their faith in Christ, and it's possible even in this country such could happen. The time to prepare is now. If we wait until faced with such we are much more likely to stumble.

John,

I can find the two witnesses Rev 11:7-14 and the 144,000 sealed Jews Rev 14:1-5 and the dead saints from the first half of the tribulation Rev 15:1-5 redeemed from the earth at the middle of the seven year tribulation but I don't see where any living saints are redeemed at the middle tribulation.

Revelation 14:6–13 KJV
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the com- mandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me,

Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth:

Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

This tells us there will be living saints who will go into the great tribulation. Many will die. Those are the blessed ones that can rest. Edited March 15, 2012 by Eric Stahl

[Eric Stahl]

The bottomline is that if the church will goes the great tribulation then there is no such thing as eternal security because anyone who takes the mark of the beast will burn in hell. And please don't tell me that a "true" Christian wouldn't take the mark. I know of tons of "true" Christians who can't drive by a Burger King without succumbing to the temptation.

Revelation 14:9–13 KJV
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
146 �� AMERICA’S LAST WARNING
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

After the two witnesses, the 144,000 thousand Jewish missionaries, and the martyred tribulation saints are redeemed bodily from the earth at the middle of the tribulation period, God will send an angel with one last loud warning that every person on earth will hear and understand. The angel tells humankind to repent and worship the true Creator, God.
The third angel warns humankind, “If you take the mark of the Antichrist and worship him, you will burn in the lake of fire forever. You will not die, but suffer forever and ever” (Revelation 14:9–11 KJV). Verses twelve and thirteen, however, say that the believers who die in the last half of the tribulation will have the blessing of no more suffering.

No true saint will take the mark of the beast. Edited March 15, 2012 by Eric Stahl