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I would agree with you that the church won't pass through the great tribulation...but we do go through tribulation, and Foxe's is simply a record of that. That was my point, and I believe his in reference to the book. Not that he was correcting the Bible.


He was using it to correct the Bible, by seemly to say we can't understand the Bible, unless we read the book.
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You have ignored context and the weight of Scripture to support your upside-down view - par for the course.


You could have not said it better.

I firmly believe your wasting your time trying to explain this to Invicta, he has proclaimed his umbilical view every since he has been here, and this gives him a soap-box to spread this teaching.
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You could have not said it better.

I firmly believe your wasting your time trying to explain this to Invicta, he has proclaimed his umbilical view every since he has been here, and this gives him a soap-box to spread this teaching.

My mind is boggling - are you accusing him of being childish?

Our views are fully Biblical.

The disagreement is that we look at the primary context, whereas disps impose disp theory on all Scripture. You reject the fundamental principles in understanding Scripture - look at the context, & the natural meaning. Then look for the significance in relation to Christ. OT prophecy is primarily for the prophet & his readers, & often has significance to Christ & his saving work including the Gospel age & his eternal kingdom.
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John 5:24-29, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”

So this is a common passage to teach a general resurrection at the Great White Throne judgment, which eventually leads to a general judgment, which leads to an allegorizing of the entire book of Revelation. In other words, this is one of the passages that are used by non-dispensationalist to generalize everything and in the end make a general mess of things.

Here’s what is going on here. In verse 24 Jesus is talking about spiritual resurrection, those that “hear” his word are passed from death unto life. At the end of the passage, we see in verse 29 a resurrection of the just and the unjust (Acts 24:15, Dan. 12:1-2). The Bible says that “the hour is coming” in which all of this will occur.

So should we simply believe because the Bible says “hour” here that this is to all occur in one hour? Non-dispensationalist have rested much of their theological position on not merely the word “hour” in this passage, but their definition of the word “hour.”

So does the word “hour” always mean sixty minutes, 3,600 seconds? Does it ever mean anything else? What about the phrase “that was their finest hour”? Does that refer to sixty minutes, or does it refer to a generic period of time?

You can already see where I’m going here. A Preterist will demand the most strict and over-literal interpretation of Rev. 1:3, and in turn will generalize the rest of the book of Revelation, and anywhere else in the Bible that speaks of end time events that have not been fulfilled. This is all done ignoring other passages in the Bible where God speaks of things being at hand or occurring in “a little while” (such as the birth of Christ in Hag. 2:6-7 which was written 500 years before Christ was born).

Other non-dispensationalists will demand the same thing here, without considering other Scriptures. They will insist that Jesus meant what they mean whenever they use the word “hour.” The book of John was written a really long time ago, and considering that the word “hour” today doesn’t always mean a literal sixty minutes, it would be irresponsible to cram all of Bible prophecy into this verse without looking at how John uses the word hour at other times:

John 2:4, “Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.”

John 4:21, “Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.”

John 4:23, “But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.”

John 7:30, “Then they sought to take him: but no man laid hands on him, because his hour was not yet come.”

John 8:20, “These words spake Jesus in the treasury, as he taught in the temple: and no man laid hands on him; for his hour was not yet come.”

Rev. 3:3, “Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.”

Rev. 3:10, “Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.”

Those are seven examples where the apostle John uses the word “hour” and it clearly represents “time.” Obviously no one thinks that John never used the word “hour” to represent a literal “hour,” so to be fair let’s look at some examples where that occurs:

John 4:6, “Now Jacob's well was there. Jesus therefore, being wearied with his journey, sat thus on the well: and it was about the sixth hour.”

John 4:52, “Then enquired he of them the hour when he began to amend. And they said unto him, Yesterday at the seventh hour the fever left him.”

John 11:9, “Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.”

John 19:14, “And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!”

Rev. 9:15, “And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.”

Rev. 18:10, “Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.”

Rev. 18:17, “For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,”

Rev. 8:1, “And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.”

So this should prove that the word “hour” can go either way: “time” or literal hour. So how does one go about distinguishing the difference? A serious student of the Bible should be careful before jumping to conclusions on something like this. Let’s look at the passage that is up for debate again:

John 5:28-29, “Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”

It’s best to examine the verse based upon two things:

1. Context.
2. Subject matter.

Okay, so let’s examine the immediate context.

John 5:24-29, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”

What a minute, look at verse 25 again:

John 5:25, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.”

Right there in the immediate context Jesus is using the word “hour” to represent not merely one unit of sixty minutes, but literally 2,000 years of time! That passage speaks of the spiritual resurrection that happens every time a person trusts Christ and becomes a believer. Just a couple breaths of air later Jesus uses the word “hour” again to describe the resurrection. Jesus could just as easily be using the term to describe time as he could a literal specific “hour,” if not more so.

Therefore, to clearly place the interpretation of the passage we would need to ask one simple question:

“Does the rest of Scripture support the idea that there is one isolated resurrection in which everyone is resurrected within the same sixty minute period?”

The answer is simple: no, Scripture does not support that and neither does history.

Matthew 27:51-53, "And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52) And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53) And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."

Daniel and Jesus both spoke of a resurrection of the just and the unjust as being a future event, and yet many saints have already resurrected and there are many that still will. By admitting that there is yet a future resurrection the non-dispensationalist has already proved himself wrong on the passage in question!

The resurrection of the just must contain at least two specific times of resurrection.


So tempted to support you here but...I haven't begun my own study yet. If we haven't been raptured before I complete that study then, I'll share it with you.
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He was using it to correct the Bible, by seemly to say we can't understand the Bible, unless we read the book.


I was not using it to correcet the bible. I was using it to show that the bible is correct when it Jesus says, "In the world ye shall have tribulation:" It is not me that denies or corrects that scripture, but those who say that we won't pass through tribulation.
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The general persecutions and tribulations of the church age saints are caused by the "the wrath of wicked men and the devil" (John 16:33). The coming 7 year tribulation is a period which pertains to "God's wrath"...or the "day of His wrath" (Psalm 110:5; Revelation 6:17; Isaiah 13:6-13, etc.). The Body of Christ/the Church will not see God's wrath, but will be delivered from it, as God promised (1 Thessalonians 1:9-10; 1 Thessalonians 5:1-9; Romans 5:9; Revelation 3:10).

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I think with this topic it's good to make a difference where Scripture talks about general tribulation as a principle and then on the other hand the great tribulation, a specific, future event which as far as I can see doesn't relate to the church.

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I think with this topic it's good to make a difference where Scripture talks about general tribulation as a principle and then on the other hand the great tribulation, a specific, future event which as far as I can see doesn't relate to the church.

Agreed - the great tribulation was certainly a specific, event which didn't/doesn't relate to the church. It was future when Jesus prophesied it, but what about the Revelation refs? In Rev. 1 & 2 the church suffers, while the Thyatira great tribulation is a specific judgment, not THE great tribulation. That leaves:
7:
14
And I said u
nt
o him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their r
ob
es, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Have they suffered tribulation, or been protected from it? Protected. They include the 144,000 Jewish believers who were sealed before the four angels were turned loose to wreak havoc on the earth, together with a great multitude of the redeemed from all mankind.

These Jewish believers, who had continued faithful through the increasing apostasy of the nation prior to the destruction, & saw the loss of everything as they fled the city before the final siege - & great tribulation prophesied by the Lord - receive their full reward:
15
Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

16
They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

17
For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them u
nt
o living fou
nt
ains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.


They (these Jewish first-fruits (Rev. 14)) came out before the great tribulation in the run-up to the destruction through the Lord's protection, & John sees them numbered with all the redeemed in glory.
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Agreed - the great tribulation was certainly a specific, event which didn't/doesn't relate to the church. It was future when Jesus prophesied it, but what about the Revelation refs? In Rev. 1 & 2 the church suffers, while the Thyatira great tribulation is a specific judgment, not THE great tribulation. That leaves:
7:
14
And I said u
nt
o him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their r
ob
es, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Have they suffered tribulation, or been protected from it? Protected. They include the 144,000 Jewish believers who were sealed before the four angels were turned loose to wreak havoc on the earth, together with a great multitude of the redeemed from all mankind.

These Jewish believers, who had continued faithful through the increasing apostasy of the nation prior to the destruction, & saw the loss of everything as they fled the city before the final siege - & great tribulation prophesied by the Lord - receive their full reward:
15
Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

16
They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

17
For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them u
nt
o living fou
nt
ains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.


They (these Jewish first-fruits (Rev. 14)) came out before the great tribulation in the run-up to the destruction through the Lord's protection, & John sees them numbered with all the redeemed in glory.


Covenanter:

Actually, I don't think that the great tribulation of Matthew 24.21 refers to AD70 at all:

'For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.'
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Matthew 24:21 is future....it will be the fulfillment of Daniel 9:27:

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

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Matthew 24:21 is future....it will be the fulfillment of Daniel 9:27:

Daniel 9:27 And he (Christ) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:(He did, Romans 13:8) and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, (Christ fulfilled this by His death on the Cross in the midst of the week.) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. The desolations that were poured out on the Jews, for the ultimate sin, rejecting and crucifying their long promised Messiah, which would all come on the generation that perpetrated this, Matt 23:30-36, Matt 24:34, Mark 13:30, Luke 21:24, Duet 28. He made it desolate as these were the days of vengence, as Jesus said,Luke 21:22, completeing the quote from Isaiah, he made in Luke 4:18-21 .The overspreading of abominations were possibly those Jews who, rebelling against their legal government, Caesar, performed all forms of abomination the the temple, killing the high priests and shedding innocent blood in the temple. He made it desolate and took away their vineyard and gave it to another bearing the fruits thereof.
Edited by Invicta
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I read some on the Rapture/Tribulation today and from what I was reading there is no consistency of agreement even among those who believe in this. What I was reading dealt only with those who are pre-trib, mid-trib and post-trib. Some fairly good arguments were put forth for the pre-trib and mid-trib, as well as a few good counters to both those. In the end, the pre-trib and mid-trib views came out looking about equally possible.

There was a little less on the post-trib and what they presented, this view didn't hold up as well as the other two had potential to.

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There are two main views on Daniel 9. 1:

1:That it leads to the coming and work of Christ and the result of the rejection and murder of him by the Jews.

2: That is all about some coming Antichrist.

(at least one of these must be wrong and as such is a Satanic deception. We cannot all be right, but we can all be wrong.)

There is a third view, that 69½ weeks went till the crucifiction, but the last ½ week is carried into the future.

Again there is disagreememt on the annointing Most Holy.

1: Some future temple. This would go against all scripture as I see it regarding Christ's finished work. I cannot find that he temple was annointed, although the tabernacle was,

2: Christ being received in to the heavenlies. I have only found one writer who believed that and he later changed his mind to no 3:

3: The Holy Spirit annointing the Church at Pentecost. This would have ocurred during the 70th week.

4: Christ being annointed at his Baptism. Luke 4:18 "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me....." Announced as the Holy one of God, Luke 4:34, Mark 1:24.

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Covenanter:

Actually, I don't think that the great tribulation of Matthew 24.21 refers to AD70 at all:

'For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.'


The key words her are "Such as."

There never was tribulation "Such as." that which began at that time as it still continues today.
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