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Yes, I agree that one of us is wrong, and if you've tried to mix faith with works then you're lost. Yes, I see the sin of teaching false doctrine that damns people to Hell, and if you want to call that denominationalism then be my guest. I'm a little hesitant to say that just being a denomination different than my own is a sin because of this passage:

Mark 9:38-40, "And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
39) But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.
40) For he that is not against us is on our part."

You use a lot of circular reasoning, and while appreciate you taking the time and effort to answer what you have, whether you know it or not you avoid a lot of specific questions. I asked you if you thought it was convenient that out of all the groups of professing Christians in the world YOURS is the only one who is true church, therefore to be saved you must be part of YOUR group. You never answered the question; you just started talking about how the church is the church. Face it: you teach that being part of a certain group or association is what puts you in "the church" and what makes you saved. I can believe everything you believe but go to a church that has a different name on the sign and you'd think I was going to Hell.

You never answered this:

"What would you say about the CoC folks I know of who are adamantly against the teaching of the Trinity? Are they still going to Heaven when they die because they have been baptized, are faithful, and are members of the Church of Christ?"

From what I've gathered so far, your plan of Salvation is:

1. Believe.
2. Get baptized unto the remission of sins.
3. Stay faithful.
4. Remain a consistent member of a church with the label "Church of Christ" on the sign.

Thank you for answering questions.


Being in any denomination is a sin. The Bible condemns it and so I must do the same. Ah, Mark 9:38-40….good passage but it does not support denominationalism. Notice that not once did Jesus say that this man taught something other than the truth. As a matter of fact, as you have underlined, he said” he that is not against us is on our part.” If you read the Bible it is clear that those who teach error is not “for us.” You might turn to John 15 where Jesus spoke of the vine and branches. Many people mistakenly turn to that passage to justify denominationalism; it doesn’t teach such either.

I have not used circular reasoning. If you have an example of such, please provide it. Yes, you asked me and I answered the question on convenience. The fact is that I just did not answer it the way you wanted me to. It really isn’t a issue of convenience. As I stated, the church is the church regardless of what I say or do. Your implication is, of course, that I am just conveniently labeling “my denomination” (the church of Christ is not a denomination) as the right church. I will not say something that is simply false.

No, I am not saying that being a part of any group or association is what puts anyone into “the church.” What the Bible says is that by obeying the Gospel the LORD puts me into THE church. (Acts 2:47) I have read Baptist writings that state that one can be a Christian without being in the Baptist church. Others claim the same thing. If I can be a Christian without being in any denomination and I can then I choose to do so. I choose to be a Christian only.

As to the issue of the trinity: I would be concerned if I were teaching error about God. I would be afraid if I were denying that either the Father, the Son, or the HS do not exist.

I don’t have a plan of salvation but God’s plan of salvation is that we must Hear (Rom 10:17); believe in Christ (John 3:16); Repent of our sins (Acts 3:19); Confess Christ as the son of God (Matt 10:32-33; Acts 8:36ff); and be immersed in water for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38). That is God’s plan since it is His Word, not mine.

You are welcome. Again, I am more than happy to discuss the Bible.
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Rick:
Conversely, sometimes a little sarcasm can lighten the mood. I called Covenanter an old British Curmudgeon yesterday, but he knows I love him in the Lord and I didn't mean and ill will by that remark. I fully expect him to counter by calling me a Yankee Popinjay. Sarcasm is a way of reminding people we're all human and should lighten up sometimes.

Not so much of the "old." I was born in 1939. And I prefer "English" to British.
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definition of denomination:

denomination; Identifying word or words by which someone or something is called and classified or distinguished from others.

For even the churches of Christ have Identifying word or words by which they are called and classified or distinguished from others.

denomination; A group of religious congregations having its own organization and a distinctive faith.

And even the churches of Christ be a denomination, for they are a group of religious congregations having its own organization and a distinctive faith known as the churches of Christ.

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definition of denomination:

denomination; Identifying word or words by which someone or something is called and classified or distinguished from others.

For even the churches of Christ have Identifying word or words by which they are called and classified or distinguished from others.

denomination; A group of religious congregations having its own organization and a distinctive faith.

And even the churches of Christ be a denomination, for they are a group of religious congregations having its own organization and a distinctive faith known as the churches of Christ.


Jerry,

A dictionary will define a word in every way that it is used in society. I suggest that you look up the word "baptized" in your dictionary. You might be surprised that one definision includes sprinkling which is not a Biblical definition of the word as even the Baptist admit.


Denomination is a part of a whole. The church of Christ is not a part of anything but is in fact a whole; it is the church which Christ established and owns.
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The "Fellowship of Independent Evangelical Churches" was originally "The Fellowship of Independent & Unattached Churches & Missions." Many of the churches affiliated included (Undenominational) in their name.

The FIEC was mocked the "Undenominational Denomination."

We were formed in 1922 by the association of the many companies of faithful believers breaking away from the denominations (including the Baptist Union) as modernism set in. There is no hierarchy. All churches are self governing & independent. The FIEC exists for inter-church fellowship, & legal & practical advice. I was at a conference last week concerning "Growing Church Workers" looking on to the next generation of church leaders. We have an agreed 9-point doctrinal basis.

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Still its a Denomination.

SBC Churches are self governing, each church is completely Independent of all other churches, each church chooses own pastor, teachers, and ect. chooses what mission or missions it will support. The convention does not tell the churches what to do, the churches tells the convention what to do. Now I don't agree with how its all done. In fact, I know several groups of churches set up in about the same manner and many that know nothing about them say the convention and are associations rules the churches.

It sounds like yours is no different than they, just as the churches of Christ are not either, even though they claim to be. And I know well its worthless to mention this to many of those, they've been told the convention and are associations rules and refuse to believe the truth of the matter.

Now, the Roman Catholic Church is not set up in that manner, with it there is one universal church, called the 'mother church,' and all others answer to it. Of which there is nothing in the Bible like it, the Bible speaks of no 'ruling mother church.'

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Still its a Denomination.

SBC Churches are self governing, each church is completely Independent of all other churches, each church chooses own pastor, teachers, and ect. chooses what mission or missions it will support. The convention does not tell the churches what to do, the churches tells the convention what to do. Now I don't agree with how its all done. In fact, I know several groups of churches set up in about the same manner and many that know nothing about them say the convention and are associations rules the churches.

It sounds like yours is no different than they, just as the churches of Christ are not either, even though they claim to be. And I know well its worthless to mention this to many of those, they've been told the convention and are associations rules and refuse to believe the truth of the matter.

Now, the Roman Catholic Church is not set up in that manner, with it there is one universal church, called the 'mother church,' and all others answer to it. Of which there is nothing in the Bible like it, the Bible speaks of no 'ruling mother church.'


Jerry,

There are many differences.
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Maybe this has been brought up and I missed it but I am having a hard time figuring out what the CoC (or anyone that believes baptism has some sort of power in salvation) says in regards to the thief on the cross next to Jesus. Jesus told him he'd be in paradise but I can't imagine there was any baptizing going on after he called on Christ to save him.

Edited by DennisD
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Maybe this has been brought up and I missed it but I am having a hard time figuring out what the CoC (or anyone that believes baptism has some sort of power in salvation) says in regards to the thief on the cross next to Jesus. Jesus told him he'd be in paradise but I can't imagine there was any baptizing going on after he called on Christ to save him.

I can't speak for COC, nor do I believe baptism has saving efficacy. The thief died before Pentecost, as did ALL the OT saints. His testimony shows that he was baptised into Christ by the Holy Spirit. His repentance was accepted by his Saviour.

Luke 3:16John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

John 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

1 Cor. 12:13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

The one baptism of Eph. 4 is the one baptism that unites Jew & Gentile into Christ. It is a common baptism.
3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
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I can't speak for COC, nor do I believe baptism has saving efficacy. The thief died before Pentecost, as did ALL the OT saints. His testimony shows that he was baptised into Christ by the Holy Spirit. His repentance was accepted by his Saviour.

Luke 3:16John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

John 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

1 Cor. 12:13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

The one baptism of Eph. 4 is the one baptism that unites Jew & Gentile into Christ. It is a common baptism.
3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,



:amen:
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Maybe this has been brought up and I missed it but I am having a hard time figuring out what the CoC (or anyone that believes baptism has some sort of power in salvation) says in regards to the thief on the cross next to Jesus. Jesus told him he'd be in paradise but I can't imagine there was any baptizing going on after he called on Christ to save him.


Dennis,

First, the thief on the cross died under the OT. He was not under the Christian Age since Christ had not yet died. We also take noted that Christ had the power to fogive sins while He was on earth (Matt 9:6; Mark 2:10; Luke 5:24). Now that He has died, was burried, rose again on the third day and accended back to the father; now that His church has been established we are under the Christian "Age," which means we must submit to Him through the NT teachings.

Also, there is nothing that says that the thief was not baptized under John's baptism.
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I can't speak for COC, nor do I believe baptism has saving efficacy. The thief died before Pentecost, as did ALL the OT saints. His testimony shows that he was baptised into Christ by the Holy Spirit. His repentance was accepted by his Saviour.

Luke 3:16John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

John 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

1 Cor. 12:13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

The one baptism of Eph. 4 is the one baptism that unites Jew & Gentile into Christ. It is a common baptism.
3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,



And therein lies the danger of taking passages out of context, linking passages which are not teaching the same things, etc.
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I can't speak for COC, nor do I believe baptism has saving efficacy. The thief died before Pentecost, as did ALL the OT saints. His testimony shows that he was baptised into Christ by the Holy Spirit. His repentance was accepted by his Saviour.

Luke 3:16John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

John 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

1 Cor. 12:13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

The one baptism of Eph. 4 is the one baptism that unites Jew & Gentile into Christ. It is a common baptism.
3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,


So you think that being baptized has some kind of saving power? I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, just asking the question. If the answer is yes, are there other things of which you believes has saving power as well?
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So you think that being baptized has some kind of saving power? I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, just asking the question. If the answer is yes, are there other things of which you believes has saving power as well?


Covenanter said the following:

I can't speak for COC, nor do I believe baptism has saving efficacy.
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