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Is it really profitable to go down this road again? :icon_rolleyes:

I, for one, would be interested in learning the doctrine of the CoC, but can we please avoid repeating this whole 'baptism & salvation' discussion?


We could talk about church membership and salvation.
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coc333 again, yawn.gif, it seems to me you can use the OT when convenient (your reference to Isaiah), and when Paul wrote the book of Romans there were only 5 other NT (he had writen)+/- books written, the Word of God in existence at that time was the OT. Just my twocents.gif

Edited by Bro Jim
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It amazes me how everyone keeps bringing up things which do not have anything to do with worshipping God. Toilets (post 9), English translations (38), Buildings (38), Automobiles (41), shoes (40) are all brought up to try to justify the use of MI in NT worship. Again, not one of these has anything to do with proper worship. Not one of these in anyway changes the worship of God. If this is the best anyone has then there isn’t much that you have to “hang your hat on” in relation to MI.


There is no doudt in my mind that you are amazed and easily at that. I'm beginning to understand...if you have no Biblical basis for your Church dogma then you resort to Catholic style avoidance. CoC and RCC both have two Cs in them...I see the similarity now.
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Is it really profitable to go down this road again? :icon_rolleyes:

I, for one, would be interested in learning the doctrine of the CoC, but can we please avoid repeating this whole 'baptism & salvation' discussion?



I cannot understand you making this comment, salvation is the most important thing, without it a soul will go to hell to be punished forever. There is never a season that it is not proper to speak about salvation. And without salvation a person cannot under stand God, its a life heart changing experience.

And I can't imagine anyone being opposed to the path to salvation to be proclaim, unless its a lost person that knows not God. And we know quite well that the lost cannot discern God's Word.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Yes, until they are 1st saved, they cannot understand spiritual implications of God's Word.

Seems only a lost person and or one that holds to the Calvinist doctrine would oppose to seeing a plan of salvation laid out in a place were a lost person might be. But that is off topic under this topic. But salvation is never off topic.
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[

Seth, you say that “Biblically Christians have liberty to do anything they like as long as it is not sin in and of itself, and is not a bad testimony and stumbling block to others that leads them astray.” I suppose that you can use hamburgers and coke on the Lord’s Supper if you so desire. We both know better than that. Yet we have no command not to. The Bible is clear as to how man is to worship God.


Yes. If a church wanted to have hamburgers and softdrinks at the Lords supper in addition to the unleavened bread and grape juice that specifically represents the body and blood of the Lord they would have the liberty to do so as long as it wasn't a situation like the one in the Corinthian church where they were sinning because some were bring large amounts of food and partying and even getting drunk(sin in and of itself) while others were poor and didn't even have enough to eat and were being shamed by the more wealthy. It might seem odd, since most of us are probably used to a tiny cup and a little piece of a "cracker" instead of a real meal but there wouldn't be anything "wrong" with eating a full meal or any acceptable food or drink items along with the unleavened bread and grape juice provided it was done in a careful manner that did not invite sin. That would mean making sure no one was tempted toward gluttony, food was fairly distributed so that some were not ending up with a lot of the "good stuff" while others were getting stuff not nearly so good and not much of it at that, etc. The hassles of regulating that properly as well as the difficulty of providing enough food for everyone is probably why the majority of churches started using the tiny cup and little piece of cracker instead of a real meal. That preserves the symbolism which is the most important aspect, makes sure everything is fair and equal, and certainly doesn't tempt anyone to gluttony. Edited by Seth-Doty
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Jim, perhaps I have not been as clear as I need to be. I am not saying that the OT is not useful. I am not saying that we can not use it to learn principles. What I am saying and what the Bible does teach is that we do not look to the OT to know what “acts of worship” that we are taught to offer to the Lord. We are not to follow the OT commands. I hope that I am a bit clearer in what I am saying now. Certainly the Word is clear even when we are not.

Tim, you are funny.

Seth, you are not. All I can say is WOW!!!!!!......WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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I cannot understand you making this comment, salvation is the most important thing, without it a soul will go to hell to be punished forever. There is never a season that it is not proper to speak about salvation. And without salvation a person cannot under stand God, its a life heart changing experience.

And I can't imagine anyone being opposed to the path to salvation to be proclaim, unless its a lost person that knows not God. And we know quite well that the lost cannot discern God's Word.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Yes, until they are 1st saved, they cannot understand spiritual implications of God's Word.

Seems only a lost person and or one that holds to the Calvinist doctrine would oppose to seeing a plan of salvation laid out in a place were a lost person might be. But that is off topic under this topic. But salvation is never off topic.



Jerry, I must say that I agree with you in as much as it is always the right time to discuss salvation.

Obviously, we do not agree on what in fact in involved in salvation nor on some of the other comments you made in this post but it is always the right time to discuss salvation.
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Tim, you are funny.

Seth, you are not. All I can say is WOW!!!!!!......WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Even in the OT David had the liberty to eat the shewbread that was technically only lawful for the priests to eat since he understood the meaning of it, how much more would we have liberty in the NT age to eat a full meal in at the "Lords supper" considering that there is nothing that would say otherwise and fully understanding the meaning of his body and shed blood and victory over sin and death? Anything I could eat or drink in good conscience at any time I could eat or drink in equally good conscience at a supper in remembrance of Christ where the unleavened bread, the symbol of his body and his holiness, and the grape juice, the symbol of his blood and sacrifice was eaten. Why not? Can't think of any reason why not but habit, tradition, and the potential problems with doing it on a congregational level that I mentioned in a previous post.

Jesus is Lord of the Lord's supper as well as the sabbath. :wink

"1 Corinthians 10:31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God."
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Jerry, I must say that I agree with you in as much as it is always the right time to discuss salvation.

Obviously, we do not agree on what in fact in involved in salvation nor on some of the other comments you made in this post but it is always the right time to discuss salvation.


I didn't take it as so much an "objection" to talking about salvation issues as being tired of the exact same stony ground being gone over again in a short period of time. How long or how much seed to throw on stony ground? I personally don't mind it being discussed but I don't think any of us are under any illusions as to the result. Coc333 will insist baptism is part of salvation and that we are ignoring the scriptures, and pretty much everyone else will say in various ways that he is a unbiblical heretic and that baptism is the answer of a good conscience toward God and is the first step of obedience to Christ rather than having anything to do with salvation. End of story. Edited by Seth-Doty
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I didn't take it as so much an "objection" to talking about salvation issues as being tired of the exact same stony ground being gone over again in a short period of time. How long or how much seed to throw on stony ground? I personally don't mind it being discussed but I don't think any of us are under any illusions as to the result. Coc333 will insist baptism is part of salvation and that we are ignoring the scriptures, and pretty much everyone else will say in various ways that he is a unbiblical heretic and that baptism is the answer of a good conscience toward God and is the first step of obedience to Christ rather than having anything to do with salvation. End of story.


You never know, but if you completely surrender and not bring it up, it surely will never happen, and it is of utmost importance.
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I didn't take it as so much an "objection" to talking about salvation issues as being tired of the exact same stony ground being gone over again in a short period of time. How long or how much seed to throw on stony ground? I personally don't mind it being discussed but I don't think any of us are under any illusions as to the result. Coc333 will insist baptism is part of salvation and that we are ignoring the scriptures, and pretty much everyone else will say in various ways that he is a unbiblical heretic and that baptism is the answer of a good conscience toward God and is the first step of obedience to Christ rather than having anything to do with salvation. End of story.

I think the misconception arises because in the NT baptism was so closely associated with the conversion experience: it was the automatic and immediate response to having repented and called upon the Lord by faith....Hence "repent and be baptized" is said in the same breath. But the Scriptures clearly and repeatedly repudiate any doctrine which says we are saved by any human works which we perform. Baptism, then, being a "work," has absolutely no efficacy to save us. Coc has demonstrated for all of us the danger of taking just a few verses out of the context of the whole NT, and using them to contradict other just as clear verses. "Baptism saves" is a clear contradition of "not of works" (Eph.), "not by works of righteousness" (Titus), etc. (don't want to take the time to list out all the verses we already know).

Seems like we all know what each other believes about salvation. We cannot convince anyone of the truth; we all must be convinced by the Holy Spirit as we read His Word. So, it sorta seems that discussions like this one are pretty useless...
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I can think of two men right off, they were both hardened, for you to have known them you would have thought they were the brothers of the devil himself. I'm glad no one gave up on them, for you see, they both made a profession of faith and wanted to be baptized, and even attended church. Wow, to met them before and after, you would have thought they were different people after their conversion. Yet the Word does speak about the new man, and the Word can do for a lost man.

I even remember preaching at a Baptist Church one night, a man and a woman walked the aisle to be save. They had visited this Baptist Church on an impulse that night, they were members in good standing of a local church of Christ. Maybe someone felt it was not useless to tell them, Tell Me The Old Story and that is why they were in that church that night. They professed faith in Jesus Christ and wanted to be baptized.

Ro 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

How shall they hear, if everyone thinks its useless? How can the holy Spirit work, if we think its useless?

You never know when the seed is planted, if its not planted, the Holy Spirit cannot do its part. I hope I never get to the point I think its useless and I give up.

I stand amazed at my Baptist brothers and sister being tired of hearing about salvation and thinking its useless.

Being near 65, I could give more examples, yet that ought to be enough.

Hey, its not useless, the Word is still powerful.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart

Its just as powerful as ever, unless you hide it under the bushel thinking its useless. Still, even at near 65, "I Love To Tell The Story," and I love for people to "Tell Me The Old Story." I never tire of it as some seem to do.

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I think the misconception arises because in the NT baptism was so closely associated with the conversion experience: it was the automatic and immediate response to having repented and called upon the Lord by faith....Hence "repent and be baptized" is said in the same breath. But the Scriptures clearly and repeatedly repudiate any doctrine which says we are saved by any human works which we perform. Baptism, then, being a "work," has absolutely no efficacy to save us. Coc has demonstrated for all of us the danger of taking just a few verses out of the context of the whole NT, and using them to contradict other just as clear verses. "Baptism saves" is a clear contradition of "not of works" (Eph.), "not by works of righteousness" (Titus), etc. (don't want to take the time to list out all the verses we already know).

Seems like we all know what each other believes about salvation. We cannot convince anyone of the truth; we all must be convinced by the Holy Spirit as we read His Word. So, it sorta seems that discussions like this one are pretty useless...


Good points Annie. I believe (and I'm sure that coc will correct me if I'm wrong) that the Church of Christ don't see baptism as a "work" of man. Rather, they see being baptized by a pastor the same as being led to the Lord by a pastor. The pastor plays his role, but it is acutally God that does the saving and the baptizing. I can agree with them in that regard, however I don't agree that baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Jim, perhaps I have not been as clear as I need to be. I am not saying that the OT is not useful. I am not saying that we can not use it to learn principles. What I am saying and what the Bible does teach is that we do not look to the OT to know what “acts of worship” that we are taught to offer to the Lord. We are not to follow the OT commands. I hope that I am a bit clearer in what I am saying now. Certainly the Word is clear even when we are not.

Tim, you are funny.

Seth, you are not. All I can say is WOW!!!!!!......WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


You are not funny attempting to lead people astray and teach them after the doctrines of men, doctrines according to Campbellism. You have no reasoning based on Biblical truth, you have no basis for your rant (Campbellism) on mechanical instruments yet, you attempt to sell it as perfect doctrine. It is sad...the hypocrisy of it. Edited by 1Tim115
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