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March 21, 2011 (David Cloud, Fundamental Baptist Information Service, P.O. Box 610368, Port Huron, MI 48061, 866-295-4143, fbns@wayoflife.org; for instructions about subscribing and unsubscribing or changing addresses, see the information paragraph at the end of the article) -

Because of the article I sent out a couple of weeks ago (“From Brother Cloud’s Heart -- the Battle about West Coast in Perspective”), some reached the conclusion that perhaps I was apologizing for the warning or even giving my recommendation of the school.

This would be a misinterpretation of what I was saying.

I do not apologize for issuing a public warning about something an ecclesiastical institution with national and international influence is doing in a public manner.
And while I said that I hoped West Coast’s best years are ahead, and I do, that does not mean that I think they have done what is necessary to make that happen. It was an expression of compassionate hope more than a realistic expectation.

As I have said, I have never seen a church jump off of the CCM slide once they have become addicted to its soft rock sound and entertainment orientation. It could happen, but it would be exceedingly difficult to accomplish even if the leadership were committed to it at a fundamental level and even if they truly understood the issues.

Hundreds of pastors, missionaries, and parents have written to me to express concern about West Coast’s deep and longstanding adaptation of CCM and many have specifically told me that they don’t want their young people to attend such a school, because they have seen firsthand the power of CCM to bring negative change.


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I don't think he is an extremist. Sometimes I think he could 'let go' of something sooner too, but I've yet to find something I actually disagree with him in. I suppose, too, that I would probably b

Hardly likes anyone a fanatic. It seem David Cloud is a fanatic when it comes to God, Christian values. We need many more that are that way, instead of so many flowing along and going along with the

That is the sticking point isn't it. What I may think is "clear" you may not and visa versa. Matter of fact, from years past, I know that is the case between me and you even though there are many ar

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He needs to get off this bandwagon. I've talked to several pastors, including one who has a daughter going there, and they say David Cloud is way off the mark. One did say there was some music that could be classified as traditional "Southern gospel," but nothing like the commercial southern gospel today.

As I said earlier, both Sam Davison and Kevin Folger preached at a conference there, and if there was any CCM going on, they would have walked away from the pulpit.

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He needs to get off this bandwagon. I've talked to several pastors, including one who has a daughter going there, and they say David Cloud is way off the mark. One did say there was some music that could be classified as traditional "Southern gospel," but nothing like the commercial southern gospel today.

As I said earlier, both Sam Davison and Kevin Folger preached at a conference there, and if there was any CCM going on, they would have walked away from the pulpit.


Agreed. He stated his case, now he needs to walk away.

For example, one lady wrote a few days ago: “I am wondering about the things you wrote about the church at West Coast as the vice-president told a friend of mine that they had made a mistake and used some music that wasn't appropriate and had stopped and corrected the problem. Have they told you that and if so, may I ask why you never put that on your website?”

I have gone to the church’s and school’s web sites and to Paul Chappell’s blog and to the online catalog where they sell their music CDs and I have not seen any type of public statement on this matter.

Has he tried calling? :puzzled3:
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Cloud is an extremist. His material is good on the KJV and so the KJV crowd moves towards him and because most Christians have little to no discernment, they accept everything that is said at the Gospel.

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I don't think he is an extremist. Sometimes I think he could 'let go' of something sooner too, but I've yet to find something I actually disagree with him in. I suppose, too, that I would probably be guilty of not letting stuff go either if I was on the receiving end of as much flack as he gets for what are wise warnings.

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Cloud is an extremist. His material is good on the KJV and so the KJV crowd moves towards him and because most Christians have little to no discernment, they accept everything that is said at the Gospel.


Please explain any doctrine of his that is extreme, since I am with salyan I would really like to know if there is something I need to be looking out for when he is speaking (or I'm reading his articles).
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An extremist is one who holds to positions that are not clearly laid out in Scripture and then stands so firmly on them, that they separate from other Godly Christians who don't agree.

If you don't agree with Cloud, then he will separate from you.

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An extremist is one who holds to positions that are not clearly laid out in Scripture and then stands so firmly on them, that they separate from other Godly Christians who don't agree.

If you don't agree with Cloud, then he will separate from you.


He told me he is beginning to take off all Baptist Brider churches from his website even if they agree with him in all other doctrine, so I see what you mean. When I say "Baptist Brider" I'm talking about those that believe all the saved are still going to Heaven (just not as the bride)...not the ones that believe only Baptist or like doctrine (who are saved) are going to Heaven. The latter "Baptist Brider" doesn't seem to be so heretical to separate but he does, you are correct.
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Hardly likes anyone a fanatic. It seem David Cloud is a fanatic when it comes to God, Christian values.

We need many more that are that way, instead of so many flowing along and going along with the world and its changing winds.

I personally believe that the Apostle Paul was cut from the same cloth, and many of today's pastors would not have him in their churches for fear of driving out worldly people thus hurting their numbers and collection plate.

And no, I don't agree with him on everything, yet he tries to lead in a manner that will keep people following close to Jesus staying away from worldly stuff.

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Jerry##'s

That is just a ridiculous statement that David Cloud is cut from the same cloth as an Apostle.

I have no problem with people who hold to Doctrinal positions and separate over them. However, when you begin to separate over things that are not Doctrinal or in some cases even taught in Scripture, you are a fanatic. It is ok to hold to a position yourself, but to then publicly rebuke a fine institution, he has become an extremist that I for one will not read, though I probably agree with him far more than I would disagree.

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An extremist is one who holds to positions that are not clearly laid out in Scripture and then stands so firmly on them, that they separate from other Godly Christians who don't agree.


That is the sticking point isn't it. B) What I may think is "clear" you may not and visa versa. Matter of fact, from years past, I know that is the case between me and you even though there are many areas we do agree. There are also various degrees of separation, for example I know I wouldn't be comfortable being a member at a church where the pastor held positions like some of yours, but online such disagreements are not quite as big a problem because influence and interaction is not as great. I am probably an "extremist" too though since essentially what your labeling "extremism" is standards that you don't personally share. :icon_mrgreen: Edited by Seth-Doty
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That is the sticking point isn't it. B) What I may think is "clear" you may not and visa versa. Matter of fact, from years past, I know that is the case between me and you even though there are many areas we do agree. There are also various degrees of separation, for example I know I wouldn't be comfortable being a member at a church where the pastor held positions like some of yours, but online such disagreements are not quite as big a problem because influence and interaction is not as great. I am probably an "extremist" too though since essentially what your labeling "extremism" is standards that you don't personally share. :icon_mrgreen:


I agree!



One thing seems to be true today, not many there be that likes a man, a pastor, that points out where others are wrong, especially as boldly as Bro. Cloud does. I disagree with him at times, but I give him props for the stand he takes.


And my comparison with him and Apostle Paul, the Apostle Paul fearless took a strong stand, even with Peter, even if its not popular, and so it seems with Bro. Cloud.







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Doesn't the Sword of the Lord take a totally no CCM stance? I noticed in a recent Sword they still carry ads for Chappel and his church. This kind of makes me wonder if somehow we are not seeing the whole picture or something.

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Seth,

You make my point and you didn't realize it.

We can disagree and though you might never attend a church I pastor, we can still associate and be cordial to each other. Cloud doesn't hold to that position. If you disagree with him, you are a wicked sinner who needs to be separated from.

Though I don't agree with you on some things, I think you are probably a Godly person who loves the Lord.

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We can disagree and though you might never attend a church I pastor, we can still associate and be cordial to each other. Cloud doesn't hold to that position. If you disagree with him, you are a wicked sinner who needs to be separated from.


Proof? I haven't seen anything that would lead me to think that is an accurate portrayal. On top of that concerning this particular issue I haven't seen a single thing where he has said anything like "IFB's should separate from West Coast". All I have seen is that he criticized West Coasts musical direction/musical leadership and said it concerned him as he thought it is and has been heading in the wrong direction. The mere fact that he "had the nerve" to criticize a "good" school about anything got a surprising number of people up in arms. To me such criticism is hardly the end of the world and people can agree with it or ignore it as they choose, it is just out there as a caution and consideration. There is a sentiment held by some that I totally disagree with, it essentially amounts to if you think someone or some group out there is "generally" one of the "good guys" you should never criticize them about anything. That sentiment is contrary to this scripture: "Proverbs 27:6 Faithful are the wounds of a friend; but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful.". Instead it basically comes from a point of view that says if your truly a friend you never criticize or "wound" at all unless things have gotten so bad you must now become enemies. There is a well established biblical precedent of criticizing and standing against even those who are generally the "good guys" when they sin or show poor judgement.

Just one quick example of many:

"2 Chronicles 20:37 Then Eliezer the son of Dodavah of Mareshah prophesied against Jehoshaphat, saying, Because thou hast joined thyself with Ahaziah, the LORD hath broken thy works. And the ships were broken, that they were not able to go to Tarshish."

Jehoshaphat was a pretty good king for the most part, and I suppose some IFB's would be upset if this situation occurred today because "everybody" would know that he was a good king with a good heart that the prophet should support instead of criticize. He just had the "minor" problem that he was always forming associations with people and kingdoms he shouldn't have. Take this example, there was nothing wrong with building ships to go to Tarshish, but he had no business forming a partnership with the wicked king Ahaziah. None of these associations seriously hurt Jehoshaphat himself, he just had minor difficulties and punishments like this one come out of it and remained a generally good king till he died. However his son and heir Jehoram grew up around this compromise and took things even further than he did. His son married into the wicked line of Ahab, and murdered all of Jehoshaphat's other sons destroying any potential "good fruit". That was the harvest from the seeds of some of the "minor" compromises Jehoshaphat did. The same thing happens in churches and schools. Questionable things are brought in or done, some call them "minor" things because they don't necessarily destroy everything good right away, but slowly and surely the seeds start coming up and in the passage of time you end up closer and closer to a kingdom of Jehoram and farther and farther from the kingdom of Jehoshaphat you once had.


It also seems a little ironic that you criticize cloud(which is fine if you disagree) for "separating" over what you consider to be minor issues and then say things like this: "he has become an extremist that I for one will not read, though I probably agree with him far more than I would disagree." In short it seems you yourself are criticizing and "separating" from him because you think he criticizes and "separates" from others over "minor" issues to often. I find that a little bit humorous. :biggrin: Edited by Seth-Doty
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Seth,

I have given a Biblical position on why Mr. Cloud is wrong in his attack on West Coast. You refuse to accept a Scriptural view. This particular issue is not clear in Scripture. Though there are many clear principles of music found in the Bible, one man's definition of CCM and another can vary. An example that I have already given is Ron Hamilton. There are extremists in the IFB world that say that Ron Hamilton's music is CCM. I for one would not put Ron Hamilon in that group. Some would define CCM as anything written in the last 50 years. Again, another Extremist position.

As to Separation. I have not separated from Mr. Cloud. I choose not to read his material. If he came to my church, I would still go to church and shake his hand. I don't have time this morning to explain Biblical separation. If I need to, let me know.

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Seth,

I have given a Biblical position on why Mr. Cloud is wrong in his attack on West Coast. You refuse to accept a Scriptural view. This particular issue is not clear in Scripture. Though there are many clear principles of music found in the Bible, one man's definition of CCM and another can vary. An example that I have already given is Ron Hamilton. There are extremists in the IFB world that say that Ron Hamilton's music is CCM. I for one would not put Ron Hamilon in that group. Some would define CCM as anything written in the last 50 years. Again, another Extremist position.

As to Separation. I have not separated from Mr. Cloud. I choose not to read his material. If he came to my church, I would still go to church and shake his hand. I don't have time this morning to explain Biblical separation. If I need to, let me know.

I understand what you are trying to say. Scritpure doesn't clearly dictate what is and isn't acceptable Christian music. There are some general principles we can apply, but they are general, not specific, and do not cover every aspect we encounter.

For instance, some today denounce any Christian music put forth by someone who has any connection with worldly music. Most of these endorse and sing the hymns of Fanny Crosby even though she herself wrote many secular songs, some of which were even played in minstrel shows.

In areas of music there is much more room for "tolerance" (in the claccis sense, not the modern) than there is if we were discussing a clear doctrinal issue. I can embrace as a brother in Christ one who listens to music I may disagree with while I could not do so with a guy who believes one must do some sort of work to be saved. While I may not be willing to attend a church which plays certain music, if the members are born again believers, I can have a measure of fellowship/friendship with them outside the church.
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About West Coast...We are acquainted with some great men who are on staff there. We especially love John Goetsch. We count Bryan Samms as a friend also. My husband and his family have been to the school, have talked in depth with Bro. Chappell, have attended services and mingled with the college kids at various times. My daughter's camp counselor (who did a super job) was a West Coast student.

Our family/church is on the VERY conservative end of the music spectrum. We do not listen to southern gospel at all, and Patch the Pirate does not flow freely, either, although we allow our kids to listen to much of his stuff. All of this said, my husband's take on the music on the West Coast platform could be summed up in one word: hokey. He said it's definitely not CCM, but it could lean toward the southern gospel end of things. The chapel services seem a bit "showy" and man-centered. (The students applaud as the administration files in and sits down, for example...nothing "wrong" with that, per se, but it's part of the atmosphere that directs attention to men, not God.)

My husband and I have talked...We don't think we'd ever send our kids to West Coast--mainly because of the strong KJVO stand. (At the graduation ceremony, the graduates have to promise that if they ever preach from any other version than the KJV, they will turn in their diplomas and forfeit their degree. :icon_rolleyes: ) And, the music there is a factor, too, and the whole "feeling" of being man-centered (the large portrait of Jack Hyles in their "hall of faith" adds to this feeling), but I agree with those who say that David Cloud is overreacting in this instance.

Edited by Annie
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About West Coast...We are acquainted with some great men who are on staff there. We especially love John Goetsch. We count Bryan Samms as a friend also. My husband and his family have been to the school, have talked in depth with Bro. Chappell, have attended services and mingled with the college kids at various times. My daughter's camp counselor (who did a super job) was a West Coast student.

Our family/church is on the VERY conservative end of the music spectrum. We do not listen to southern gospel at all, and Patch the Pirate does not flow freely, either, although we allow our kids to listen to much of his stuff. All of this said, my husband's take on the music on the West Coast platform could be summed up in one word: hokey. He said it's definitely not CCM, but it could lean toward the southern gospel end of things. The chapel services seem a bit "showy" and man-centered. (The students applaud as the administration files in and sits down, for example...nothing "wrong" with that, per se, but it's part of the atmosphere that directs attention to men, not God.)

My husband and I have talked...We don't think we'd ever send our kids to West Coast--mainly because of the strong KJVO stand. (At the graduation ceremony, the graduates have to promise that if they ever preach from any other version than the KJV, they will turn in their diplomas and forfeit their degree. :icon_rolleyes: ) And, the music there is a factor, too, and the whole "feeling" of being man-centered (the large portrait of Jack Hyles in their "hall of faith" adds to this feeling), but I agree with those who say that David Cloud is overreacting in this instance.

Thank you for sharing your insights.

It's actually a shame to see so many IFBs forming into "camps" and worse yet that each camp will denounce aspects they disagree with in other camps, but within their own camp they are often too willing to overlook things they should speak out about simply for the sake of keeping those currently in the camp from departing.
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About West Coast...We are acquainted with some great men who are on staff there. We especially love John Goetsch. We count Bryan Samms as a friend also. My husband and his family have been to the school, have talked in depth with Bro. Chappell, have attended services and mingled with the college kids at various times. My daughter's camp counselor (who did a super job) was a West Coast student.

Our family/church is on the VERY conservative end of the music spectrum. We do not listen to southern gospel at all, and Patch the Pirate does not flow freely, either, although we allow our kids to listen to much of his stuff. All of this said, my husband's take on the music on the West Coast platform could be summed up in one word: hokey. He said it's definitely not CCM, but it could lean toward the southern gospel end of things. The chapel services seem a bit "showy" and man-centered. (The students applaud as the administration files in and sits down, for example...nothing "wrong" with that, per se, but it's part of the atmosphere that directs attention to men, not God.)

My husband and I have talked...We don't think we'd ever send our kids to West Coast--mainly because of the strong KJVO stand. (At the graduation ceremony, the graduates have to promise that if they ever preach from any other version than the KJV, they will turn in their diplomas and forfeit their degree. :icon_rolleyes: ) And, the music there is a factor, too, and the whole "feeling" of being man-centered (the large portrait of Jack Hyles in their "hall of faith" adds to this feeling), but I agree with those who say that David Cloud is overreacting in this instance.


Annie,

Have you ever researched the reason fundamentalists only use the KJV? I think it's worth the look (it's not only new words or missing verses but the actual manuscripts that they are translated from that are corrupt). You don't have to respond fully, just yes or no but maybe we can start another discussion. I think those that use the newer versions imply (not knowingly most of the time) that God is a liar because He didn't keep His Word preserved and we had to "improve" upon it with "better" manuscripts that weren't found until recently.

:11backtotopic:
I agree with the clapping, that sounds a little odd...
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The KJB has a 400 year proven track record. That should speak volumnes in itself!

Another thing that should speak volumnes is that those who come up with one MV after another proclaim that there is no Bible out there that is fully the Word of God, that all are riddled with error, that the latest MV isn't the preserved and perfect Word of God and that newer editions will be needed in the future.

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