What is hell?

[dantheman2]

[John81]

It is not clear to people who are driven by preconceived notions based upon 1) their judgment of their opponents' motives and 2) upon their own emotion and feelings about what God should or should not be like.

Well, nothing is clear to the one who already has their mind made up which is why I added that not only do we need to look at the clear passages on the topic, but to also take what it says as is. Drop all the "but if...", or "what about..." and especially, "I think...".

You are right, if their mind is set to believe something and they are unwilling to take the Word as is, it won't be clear to them, but that's not a case of the Word not being clear, that's a case of them being willfully blind to the Word or allowing themselves to be blinded by the Enemy.

[Kleptes]

Where does this verse say that God’s wrath means eternal torment and not just oblivion due to death?



Book, chapter, verse?



The Greek word translated as everlasting could also mean an age, i.e., a period of time of definite beginning and end, but of un-determined length of time. Everlasting could very well be a mis-translation.



Everlasting punishment could be everlasting death rather than everlasting torment.

Sounds like you believe in some kind of annihilation theology. Is that true? If so, that is a theology of a calvanisitc background. The bible is very clear that there is a Second death which is a resurrection to be judged out of the books at the Great White throne Judgement and those not found in the Lambs book of life will be thrown into a like of fire and tormented forever and ever.

Revelation 19:20
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Revelation 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Notice the words for ever and ever. These words mean "aion" in Greek. Which means age but not just the word itself but an unbroken age, perpetual time and/or eternal. These words are preceded by the word torment. This word is "basanizo" in Greek.)

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:15
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Those that are born again have no fear of the second death. Because we overcome by the blood of Jesus Christ our Savior.

1 John 5:4
For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

1 John 5:5
Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Revelation 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

There are plenty of scriptures in the Bible that teaches the truth of everlasting life as well as everlasting torment, and not any amount evidence of the lie of annihilation that some teach. Edited June 5, 2011 by Kleptes

[no name joe]

I've not read this thread, but to the OP: That is an interesting question, and one that I do not know the answer to with certainty. Here is what I beleive the Bible teaches with certainty about hell:

1. We are all sinners. The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

2. Hell is separation from God and a place of fire. The fire is never extinguished and will burn for all eternity.

So, what can we gather from this? Hell is real. It is a place where people who reject God will go. What happens when they get there? I have no idea. Is it a place where they will burn eternally? I'm not convinced of that. I am convinced the fire is never extinguished, but I wonder about two things. First, if the wages of sin is death, then will the fire eventually consume and destroy the spirt of those who go there? Or will they burn in hell for all eternity? I'm not sure which the Bible teaches, but both are equally bad. The first seems intuitive because sin causes death. Fire consumes and does away with. So if sin equals death, will the eternal fire consume all souls who go there so that eventually they will be annihilated? That seems just. There is a price to pay for sin, and God demands justice for that sin, and they go there and are eventually annihilated. They are punished, yet their punishment comes to an end when they cease to exist. I don't think the BIble teaches that explicitly, but it can be reasonably inferred. It can also be reasonably inferred that those who go there will burn for all eternity.

I don't spend much time thinking about this. Hell is real, and whatever the torment is it will be terrible. What I need to spend time on is doing what I feel called by God to do and be obedient to him to the best of my ability, and encourage others to do the same.

[rstrats]

Kleptes,

re: “ The bible is very clear that there is a Second death which is a resurrection to be judged out of the books at the Great White throne Judgement and those not found in the Lambs book of life will be thrown into a like of fire and tormented forever and ever.”

There is no scripture that specifically says that anyone other than the devil - as it is translated in the KJV - will be tormented forever and ever. There simply isn’t any scripture that absolutely has to be taken that way. A person has to want to believe that folks who don’t qualify for salvation are to be given eternal life and are to be tortured for all of eternity.

[John81]

"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." Matthew 25:46

[Kleptes]

Kleptes,

re: “ The bible is very clear that there is a Second death which is a resurrection to be judged out of the books at the Great White throne Judgement and those not found in the Lambs book of life will be thrown into a like of fire and tormented forever and ever.”

There is no scripture that specifically says that anyone other than the devil - as it is translated in the KJV - will be tormented forever and ever. There simply isn’t any scripture that absolutely has to be taken that way. A person has to want to believe that folks who don’t qualify for salvation are to be given eternal life and are to be tortured for all of eternity.

Explain the rich man in these verses please.

Luke 16:19There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

27Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Look at verses 24 and 25 you will see the word torments. The greek word for torment is"odunao" , which means to cause intense pain.

I guess you answer is either that it is just a parable and doesn't give a real proof to a real place of torment or Its the devil, and now the rich man are the only ones in torment.

If it is the case of those thrown in the lake of fire and there is not torment for them other than the devil and/or the richman, why then would the Bible say the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars have thier part in the lake of fire?

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

I would say you to hold to an annihilation theology. Edited June 6, 2011 by Kleptes

[JerryNumbers]

He can't, it would have to explain it away, and he refuses to believe what the Bible says about eternal damnation, everlasting punishment and that the second death is not to perish, that its an everlasting death that has no end while they sufferer separated forever from the Holy God.

[John81]

He can't, it would have to explain it away, and he refuses to believe what the Bible says about eternal damnation, everlasting punishment and that the second death is not to perish, that its an everlasting death that has no end while they sufferer separated forever from the Holy God.

This person would also have to stop demeaning God and face what the Scripture actually says. Hell and the Lake of Fire are NOT places of torture, as he continually proclaims, but rather places where lost sinners serve out their just punishment.

[rstrats]

Kleptes,

re: “Explain the rich man in these verses please.”


Regardless of whatever the rich man is supposed to represent, nothing is said about the duration of the representation.

[John81]

Kleptes,

re: “Explain the rich man in these verses please.”


Regardless of whatever the rich man is supposed to represent, nothing is said about the duration of the representation.

"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." Matthew 25:46

[rstrats]

John81,

re: “‘And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.’ Matthew 25:46"


Why do you want to believe that the “punishment” is to be given eternal life to be spent in a conscious condition of general unpleasantness?

Edited June 19, 2011 by rstrats

[John81]

John81,

re: “‘And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.’ Matthew 25:46"


Why do you want to believe that the “punishment” is to be given eternal life to be spent in a conscious condition of general unpleasantness?

It has nothing to do with what I want to believe. I would love to believe that all my family will be with me in heaven, but if that "belief" doesn't agree with Scripture then it's just wishful thinking, or worse, believing a very dangerous lie. No, what I want to believe is what God has said. As Scriture declares, let God be true and every man a liar. It is the Word of God that declares those who reject Christ will spend enternity in everlasting punishment.

For me to declare this is wrong or that somehow God is not right or just in His decree would be to place myself above God, to state that my wisdom and righteousness are greater than God's and that is NOT something I will do. Rather I will believe in and stand upon the Word of God as He has given it. God's ways are not our ways.

[rstrats]

John81,

re: “It is the Word of God that declares those who reject Christ will spend enternity in everlasting punishment.”


But why do you want to interpret “punishment” to mean suffering in the lake of fire after being given eternal life? Why don’t you want to interpret it as a lack of life in accordance with the many scriptures that say one way or the other that the wages of sin is death?

[John81]

John81,

re: “It is the Word of God that declares those who reject Christ will spend enternity in everlasting punishment.”


But why do you want to interpret “punishment” to mean suffering in the lake of fire after being given eternal life? Why don’t you want to interpret it as a lack of life in accordance with the many scriptures that say one way or the other that the wages of sin is death?

Again, it's not a matter of what I want, but what Scripture as a whole says. Scripture is clear that those who reject Christ will suffer everlasting punishment.

Perhaps it is the term "death" that confuses you in some areas. "Death" in Scripture doesn't mean non-existent. Scripture makes it clear that each of us will spend eternity either in everlasting punishment or everlasting reward with Christ. There is no doctrine non-existence for Christ rejectors.