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Surogates? - Pastors and Scholars Please Read and Advise


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God designed for conception to take place in the womb' date=' not in a test tube. If we want to compare this to medicine, then why doesn't she just take medicine? No, this is quite different. This is conception outside of the marriage bed and then placed into another woman and then delivered and given back to the egg and/or sperm donors. If it is God's will for a woman to conceive, let it happen in the womb. I have no problem with fighting the disease, but this is not that.[/quote']

Good reply.

We are able to do many things but that doesn't mean we should do them. We can murder a baby before it's even born but that's not something we should be doing.
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As part of God's overall plan not all women are meant to have children. Not every woman is meant to be a mother and not every man is meant to be a dad.


To say that because my womb is closed that I may not be "meant to have children" is saying that an HIV positive crack whore pregnant with her 6th is IS meant to be a mother.

And I am assuming that all of you that believe it is to be left to God to open or shut a womb does not use any preventative measures (birth control, tubes tied, etc). Considering that, by this reasoning, doing so would be against His will as He will shut your (your wife's) womb when He is ready for you to no longer have children.


Who are you to tell God whether He should allow this disease to keep you from having children - or just "get around it" by man's ways


The same as a person who doesn't accept cancer as a death sentence and seeks treatment. "Man's ways" are to use chemo and radiation. Does that make it wrong for a person to reject God's plan of death and use medicine? Ultimately it is God's decision but I don't see it as being wrong to everything within our power to live.

I think the most important thing is to make sure that we pray for His will. Each step of our infertility journey has been covered in prayer. And not prayer that our will be done, but His. The scariest story in the Bible to me is Rachel demanding children "lest she die". She never once asked what God wanted of her only that she get what she wanted. She got what she wanted and died in the process. And then there was Sarah who followed her will and we all know what happened there. We ask God that He guide our steps and that we do His will. I ask him daily that if His will is for us to remain childless that He give me the strength to accept it and to remove this desire from me. If it is His will for us to have children we ask that He show us the way and show us if we are going down the wrong path. We are planning on doing IVF (not with a surrogate) and we ask Him to only give us a child if it is His will. If we conceive then how do you explain that?
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God designed for conception to take place in the womb' date=' not in a test tube. If we want to compare this to medicine, then why doesn't she just take medicine? No, this is quite different. This is conception outside of the marriage bed and then placed into another woman and then delivered and given back to the egg and/or sperm donors. If it is God's will for a woman to conceive, let it happen in the womb. I have no problem with fighting the disease, but this is not that.[/quote']

I may have misunderstood, but savedbygrace was talking about fertility treatments, not surrogacy, at the point in her post you were referencing. But I do think her arguments apply to surrogacy as well.

Also, using your argument, someone could say that God, the Healer and Keeper of Life, never designed for people to cut each other open and remove organs (therefore, surgery is wrong), or for people to put synthetic chemicals in their body which are otherwise potentially dangerous for them (therefore, taking medicine is wrong), or for people to use organs that others are done with (therefore, kidney transplants are wrong).

I think it is much more reasonable (and certainly not anti-biblical) to say that God designed for conception to happen when an egg and sperm come together. Sure, for thousands of years, before the advance of modern medicine, the location of conception has always been in the fallopian tube (not really in the "womb") of a woman. God designed the world in such a way, and created us in such a way, that its "mysteries" can be discovered, and humans can be helped as a result. Sure, there are lines that we shouldn't cross, but I have yet to see a plausible argument why surrogacy (in and of itself) is one of those lines.

You also reference "the marriage bed." There is no fornication taking place in surrogacy, is there? There is no forbidden sexual relationship taking place at all, that I can see...just the union of a husband and wife's reproductive cells, resulting in the conception of their child. Where is this forbidden in Scripture?

It's been awhile since I've posted in this discussion, so, just to remind y'all...I do acknowledge that surrogacy has the same ethical problems as IVF, IF living embryos are discarded. But I am (obviously) not opposed to another woman nurturing an already conceived baby--an already living soul--in her uterus. It's like foster care for the unborn, IMO.
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Yes, the HIV positive crack whore who has children was meant to be a mother; she was never meant to be an HIV positive crack whore.

God has gifted us with all sorts of knowledge, abilities and things we can use. Some can and is used in keeping with His Word, some isn't.

God has allowed us to have the ability to cure or treat some diseases and illnesses. We know these diseases and illnesses are a result of the Fall. God makes it clear He is to be in control of the womb. If God allows a womb to be closed then He has a reason for that; if God opens a womb, He has a reason for that. God laid out a clear plan with regards to having children. Children are to be the product of the union of a man and his wife as God blesses in that area.

None of this has anything to do with taking an aspirin for a headache or a doctor removing a bullet from a punctured lung.

Not everyone is meant to be a parent. For some, God has other plans. We don't all receive the same blessings and we don't all have the same calling. God has prepared different works for each of us.

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Yes, the HIV positive crack whore who has children was meant to be a mother; she was never meant to be an HIV positive crack whore.

God has gifted us with all sorts of knowledge, abilities and things we can use. Some can and is used in keeping with His Word, some isn't.

God has allowed us to have the ability to cure or treat some diseases and illnesses. We know these diseases and illnesses are a result of the Fall. God makes it clear He is to be in control of the womb. If God allows a womb to be closed then He has a reason for that; if God opens a womb, He has a reason for that. God laid out a clear plan with regards to having children. Children are to be the product of the union of a man and his wife as God blesses in that area.

None of this has anything to do with taking an aspirin for a headache or a doctor removing a bullet from a punctured lung.

Not everyone is meant to be a parent. For some, God has other plans. We don't all receive the same blessings and we don't all have the same calling. God has prepared different works for each of us.



I don't know, man. What If God "allows" your child to be born with a heart defect? Do you try do something? I know a little girl born, with several congenital defects, who has had kidney transplants and now goes for kidney dialysis. You could just as easily say that God "had a reason" for those defects, but thanks to prayer and medical science, she is still alive after 11 years. Not being able to conceive naturally, is also a medical problem.
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I don't know, man. What If God "allows" your child to be born with a heart defect? Do you try do something? I know a little girl born, with several congenital defects, who has had kidney transplants and now goes for kidney dialysis. You could just as easily say that God "had a reason" for those defects, but thanks to prayer and medical science, she is still alive after 11 years. Not being able to conceive naturally, is also a medical problem.


being deaf, yes he does have a reason. The bible is clear that he made the deaf and mute (because he said so in his own words to Moses). but at the same time, I can be implanted with cochlear implant or wear hearing aids (or learn sign languages if I had to). Although I can't hear as well as a hearing person but I am being assisted. Although, when I don't use assistance, I am back in silent to remind me that I am deaf. So I don't know being assisted to have children is something God doesn't want us to do or not, but I do know that every child that born through IVF or surrogacy (as well as children being born outside of marriage) do have a soul.
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being deaf, yes he does have a reason. The bible is clear that he made the deaf and mute (because he said so in his own words to Moses). but at the same time, I can be implanted with cochlear implant or wear hearing aids (or learn sign languages if I had to). Although I can't hear as well as a hearing person but I am being assisted. Although, when I don't use assistance, I am back in silent to remind me that I am deaf. So I don't know being assisted to have children is something God doesn't want us to do or not, but I do know that every child that born through IVF or surrogacy (as well as children being born outside of marriage) do have a soul.



Yes, God had a reason for allowing you to be deaf...and you could have just sat back and said, It's God's will and do nothing. But through the providence of GOD, medical help was available was it not? So you took action. I used to suffer...and I mean suffer....with a constantly stopped-up nose. I had sinus headaches, took thousands Tylenol capsules, snorted gallons of nasal sprays and breathed through my mouth until I was grown and married with two kids. It was then that a doctor finally discovered I was born with a deviated nasal septum. I had surgery and it changed my whole life. So my condition and your condition of being deaf was no different than a person's having a physical problem, preventing conception. So, speaking for myself. I wouldn't hesitate to try IVF. But I would really have to pray about the 'surrogate' thing.
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Yes, God had a reason for allowing you to be deaf...and you could have just sat back and said, It's God's will and do nothing. But through the providence of GOD, medical help was available was it not? So you took action. I used to suffer...and I mean suffer....with a constantly stopped-up nose. I had sinus headaches, took thousands Tylenol capsules, snorted gallons of nasal sprays and breathed through my mouth until I was grown and married with two kids. It was then that a doctor finally discovered I was born with a deviated nasal septum. I had surgery and it changed my whole life. So my condition and your condition of being deaf was no different than a person's having a physical problem, preventing conception. So, speaking for myself. I wouldn't hesitate to try IVF. But I would really have to pray about the 'surrogate' thing.



actually, my parents took action. I'm just hooked for life. But I could have live in the deaf culture lifestyle if my mother choose differently
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To say that because my womb is closed that I may not be "meant to have children" is saying that an HIV positive crack whore pregnant with her 6th is IS meant to be a mother.

And I am assuming that all of you that believe it is to be left to God to open or shut a womb does not use any preventative measures (birth control, tubes tied, etc). Considering that, by this reasoning, doing so would be against His will as He will shut your (your wife's) womb when He is ready for you to no longer have children.




The same as a person who doesn't accept cancer as a death sentence and seeks treatment. "Man's ways" are to use chemo and radiation. Does that make it wrong for a person to reject God's plan of death and use medicine? Ultimately it is God's decision but I don't see it as being wrong to everything within our power to live.

No one said that there was anything wrong with trying to treat a disease; but to take the matter of conception outside of the confines of marriage and the way that God designed things, is wrong.

I think the most important thing is to make sure that we pray for His will. Each step of our infertility journey has been covered in prayer. And not prayer that our will be done, but His. The scariest story in the Bible to me is Rachel demanding children "lest she die". She never once asked what God wanted of her only that she get what she wanted. She got what she wanted and died in the process. And then there was Sarah who followed her will and we all know what happened there. Exactly the point! She tried to go about it her own way because she lacked the faith to have patience and trust that God would keep His promise. Sarah was the type of woman that in today's world would have been running to the clinic to start working on IVF or surrogacy. So, since we all DO know what happened their, why should women follow in her footsteps?We ask God that He guide our steps and that we do His will. I ask him daily that if His will is for us to remain childless that He give me the strength to accept it and to remove this desire from me. If it is His will for us to have children we ask that He show us the way and show us if we are going down the wrong path. We are planning on doing IVF (not with a surrogate) and we ask Him to only give us a child if it is His will. If we conceive then how do you explain that?
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Annie, seriously, can we at least make arguments for or against this that actually apply and not stretch things far beyond what they actually mean?

How is this stretching things? You have pulled from thin air the idea that since the Bible doesn't mention any other options, God designed only ONE way for babies to be conceived and born. Scripture nowhere asserts your idea. Maybe I've misunderstood; I want to give you a chance to clarify. What Scriptures lead you to believe that a baby MUST be conceived only through the act of sex, then MUST develop in his own mother's womb? Yes, I know that references scattered throughout Scripture indicate that this is the normal, natural way, which is obvious to everybody...Nobody's saying that surrogacy is normal or natural. You are saying that, since surrogacy is not the "natural, normal" way--the way, as you say, that "God designed" childbirth--it goes against God's will. All I did was to take your logic and use it in other arguments to show that it doesn't hold water. Just because something is not "normal" or "natural" doesn't stop you from doing it.

Your main argument has been that since God is in control, we'd better not mess with that by taking our own action. My point all along has been that we take action all the time in life issues, even though, indeed, God is in control. Your arguments are not consistent with the way you live, if you approve of taking medicine and having surgery and undergoing organ transplants (which are mentioned nowhere in the Bible--do they then go against God's design?).


You missed the point. You're concerned about "God's design." You are hung up on the idea that "God did not design" for babies to be conceived this way (even though you haven't given Scriptural support for that idea). My point here is that God's "design" goes far beyond the mere location and events of conception and pregnancy. God's biological design--the way He designed that life be created--is that a baby be conceived by a father and a mother, a sperm cell and an egg cell, to form offspring that adds to the family unit. No one can argue with this. This truth is what makes cloning wrong.


I'm missing your meaning here. Of course love and intimacy is a part of conceiving a child. But love and intimacy, as you know, do not guarantee conception. And...if I may be crass for a moment...anyone who has had to "try" to get pregnant the natural way knows that love and intimacy often elude them at the prescribed times.

An orgy? Do you know what an orgy is? I doubt the parents, doctor, and/or surrogate mother are acting with wildly unbridled passions and lust. I fail to see any connection here. You have ignored the motives and purposes of what you are describing.

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