Jump to content
  • Welcome Guest

    For an ad free experience on Online Baptist, Please login or register for free

Recommended Posts

  • Members

Ian,

If Romans 11:25-28 is talking about spiritual Israel, then you and I are enemies of the gospel and partially blinded spiritually. Of course it's talking about national Israel being saved one day, that's why the contrast is given in verse 28 with "...THEY are enemies for YOUR sakes..."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Ian,

If Romans 11:25-28 is talking about spiritual Israel, then you and I are enemies of the gospel and partially blinded spiritually. Of course it's talking about national Israel being saved one day, that's why the contrast is given in verse 28 with "...THEY are enemies for YOUR sakes..."

Are the Jews (national Israel) our enemies? The generation that rejected Jesus & the Apostles were enemies in the first century. Paul writes in the present tense. He states Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. There is not an essential enmity between Jew & Christian, though there certainly was then. Paul had previously written:

1Th 2:15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:
16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

The wrath of God came upon them to the uttermost. Rev 15:1 ¶ And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

Since AD 70 we don't know how many Jews have been converted, but when they are, they are cut off from their family & lose their ethnic identity. They become one people with us, as Paul wrote, quoting Lev. 26: 2Cr 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

The Jews are no more our enemies than any other group of unbelievers. They need the Gospel, & when they believe, they will be grafted back in.

What is the fulness of the Gentiles ? Could it be when there is no longer a focus on Jerusalem, & Christians are no longer a Jewish sect? Succeeding generations of Jews are NOT guilty of condemning Jesus, only of unbelief. And what do we then understand by the fulness of Israel? Surely the church is now all Israel, & all Israel will be saved - Jew & Gentile as one people of God in Christ. Edited by Covenanter
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members
Since AD 70 we don't know how many Jews have been converted, but when they are, they are cut off from their family & lose their ethnic identity


That is true. A Jewish Christian I knew, when he was converted, his family held a funeral for him, considering him dead. He went to be with the Lord about 2 years ago.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Anything else you wanted to go over about Revelation, Nathaniel?


Hmm well, for now who are the woman and child in Re 12?
There are some others but I want to think over them a little longer before I post them though, hopefully that is alright. I have been reading the board often. Thank you all for your help! :) Edited by Nathaniel
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members


Are the Jews (national Israel) our enemies? The generation that rejected Jesus & the Apostles were enemies in the first century. Paul writes in the present tense. He states Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. There is not an essential enmity between Jew & Christian, though there certainly was then. Paul had previously written:

1Th 2:15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:
16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

The wrath of God came upon them to the uttermost. Rev 15:1 ¶ And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.


Surely you’re not trying to equate I Thess. 2:15 to Rev. 15:1, are you? What follows Revelation 15:1 is boils for those who have the mark, all sea life killed and the sea being turned to blood, the sun scorching men with fire, darkness that inflicts pain, and the Euphrates River drying up. Those things haven't happened yet.

The Jewish people have never been our enemies, but they are enemies of the Gospel. It is the same Israel that is partially blinded (but only until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in), is an enemy of the gospel (but still beloved by the Father), that will (future tense) have their sins taken away; this Israel is the Israel that God says "All Israel shall be saved."

God was done dealing with the Jews as a nation by the end of Acts. When He's done dealing with the Gentiles, is when the times of the Gentiles will be complete and He'll begin dealing with the Jew in the time of Jacob's trouble. That is when all those things that follow Revelation 15:1 begin to come to pass; the things that there are no biblical or historical evidence that they ever happened in all of history let alone 70 A.D.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members



Hmm well, for now who are the woman and child in Re 12?
There are some others but I want to think over them a little longer before I post them though, hopefully that is alright. I have been reading the board often. Thank you all for your help! :)



It's the nation of Israel, the Manchild is Christ: He's the only one destined to rule the world with a rod of Iron. I think Covenanter would actually agree with me on that one, to some extent. :) Edited by Rick Schworer
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members




It's the nation of Israel, the Manchild is Christ: He's the only one destined to rule the world with a rod of Iron. I think Covenanter would actually agree with me on that one, to some extent. :)


I wouldn't, a woman in the book of Revelation is the church. The bride for instance is the true church, the harleot is the false church, headed by Rome.

After Constantine was raised to power, the true church went into the wilderness and the false church, the harlot rose to power.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members



I wouldn't, a woman in the book of Revelation is the church. The bride for instance is the true church, the harleot is the false church, headed by Rome.

After Constantine was raised to power, the true church went into the wilderness and the false church, the harlot rose to power.


I can see where you get that, and it's certainly a better interpretation than saying she's Mary. The twelve stars under her feet and resembling Joseph's dream leans more towards Israel, to me. The big kicker is that the woman brings forth Christ, the Manchild. The church did not bring forth Christ, but Israel did.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members


It's the nation of Israel, the Manchild is Christ: He's the only one destined to rule the world with a rod of Iron. I think Covenanter would actually agree with me on that one, to some extent. :)


There has been a discussion earlier about the line of David, to Mary, to avoid the curse on Jeconiah.

The first Gospel was spoken to Satan stating Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel."

Then the promise came to Ahaz: Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Isa 54:5 For thy Maker [is] thine husband; ...

The seed is Christ, & the mother crowned with stars is faithful Israel bringing forth the promised seed. I don't consider the church to be the woman in 12:1, but as the vision progresses, & the woman is persecuted, she represents the church, believing Israel , persecuted by Satan & his angels, & unbelieving Israel.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Where have I been the last seven years? I never knew that Preterist Hank Hanagraph (I used to love listening to him on the radio) wrote a novel as a counter to LaHaye's Left Behind series. Ha! And it was even done by the same publisher! You may want to check it out.

Linky

Edited by Rick Schworer
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Where have I been the last seven years? I never knew that Preterist Hank Hanagraph (I used to love listening to him on the radio) wrote a novel as a counter to LaHaye's Left Behind series. Ha! And it was even done by the same publisher! You may want to check it out.

Linky

I've never heard of it either - thanks for the link - I hope it sells well, & many will be encouraged as they read, & reread Revelation with a fresh understanding.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members




It's the nation of Israel, the Manchild is Christ: He's the only one destined to rule the world with a rod of Iron. I think Covenanter would actually agree with me on that one, to some extent. :)


I believe the "man child" is the saved remnant (144,0000) during the tribulation raptured out perhaps midway. They too shall rule with a rod of iron.

Isaiah 66:7,8:

[7] Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
[8] Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

Rev. 2:26,27:

[26] And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
[27] And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Jesus Christ was never in danger of being gobbled up by the red dragon. The whole passage is in the context of the Great Tribulation not the first coming of Christ. Edited by Wilchbla
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Where have I been the last seven years? I never knew that Preterist Hank Hanagraph (I used to love listening to him on the radio) wrote a novel as a counter to LaHaye's Left Behind series. Ha! And it was even done by the same publisher! You may want to check it out.

Linky

Thanks - I've looked at the available pages, & recommend them as a counter to the Tim & Jerry fiction.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

In looking into various aspects of this I found it interesting that C. H. Spurgeon stood against Dispensationalist teachings. At one point Spurgeon commented that Darby's writings were "too mystical" and that if Darby were to "write in plain English his readers would probably discover that there is nothing very valuable in his remarks."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

So is everyone except me now anti dispensational, amill, partial preterists? I just want to know the company I am in. It seems that is the direction the covenant followers are taking people. I use to be a fan of Hank. I am no longer after hearing the hateful things he has said about people with my views.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.



×
×
  • Create New...