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         33
      Closed Communion
      James Foley
       
      I Corinthians 11:17-34: "Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's Supper. For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not. For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord's death till he come. Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another. And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come."

      INTRODUCTION

      Historic Baptists, true Baptists, have believed in and still believe in closed communion. Baptists impose upon themselves the same restrictions that they impose on others concerning the Lord’s Supper. Baptists have always insisted that it is the Lord’s Table, not theirs; and He alone has the right to say who shall sit at His table. No amount of so called brotherly love, or ecumenical spirit, should cause us to invite to His table those who have not complied with the requirements laid down plainly in His inspired Word. With respect to Bible doctrines we must always use the scripture as our guide and practice. For Baptists, two of the most important doctrines are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper. These are the only two doctrines we recognize as Church Ordinances. The Bible is very clear in teaching how these doctrines are to be practiced and by whom.

      We only have two ordinances that we must never compromise or we risk our very existence, they are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper.

      The moment we deviate from the precise method God has prescribed we have started down the slippery slope of error. True Baptists have held fast to the original doctrine of The Lord’s Supper from the time of Christ and the Apostles.

      Unfortunately, in this day of what the Bible describes as the age of luke warmness, Baptists are becoming careless in regard to strictly following the pattern laid out for us in Scripture. Many of our Bible colleges are graduating otherwise sincere, Godly and dedicated pastors and teachers who have not been taught the very strict, biblical requirements that surround the Lord’s Supper. Any Bible college that neglects to teach its students the differences surrounding Closed Communion, Close Communion and Open Communion is not simply short changing its students; it is also not equipping their students to carry on sound Bible traditions. The result is men of God and churches that fall into error. And as we will see, this is serious error.

      Should we as Baptists ignore the restrictions made by our Lord and Master? NO! When we hold to the restrictions placed upon the Lord’s Supper by our Master, we are defending the "faith which was once delivered to the saints" Jude 3.

      The Lord’s Supper is rigidly restricted and I will show this in the following facts:

      IT IS RESTRICTED AS TO PLACE

      A. I Corinthians 11:18 says, "When ye come together in the church." This does not mean the church building; they had none. In other words, when the church assembles. The supper is to be observed by the church, in church capacity. Again this does not mean the church house. Ekklesia, the Greek word for church, means assembly. "When ye come together in the church," is when the church assembles.

      B. When we say church we mean an assembly of properly baptized believers. Acts 2:41-42: "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers."

      The church is made up of saved people who are baptized by immersion. In the Bible, belief precedes baptism. That’s the Bible way.

      Acts 8:12-13, "But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done."

      When we say properly baptized, we mean immersed. No unbeliever should take the Lord’s supper, and no non-immersed believer should take the supper. Those who are sprinkled are not baptized and cannot receive the supper. The Greek word for baptize is baptizo, and it always means to immerse.

      "In every case where communion is referred to, or where it may possibly have been administered, the believers had been baptized Acts 2:42; 8:12; 8:38; 10:47; 6:14-15; 18:8; 20:7. Baptism comes before communion, just as repentance and faith precede baptism".

      C. The Lord’s Supper is for baptized believers in church capacity: "When ye come together in the church," again not a building, but the assembly of the properly baptized believers.

      D. The fact that the Lord’s Supper is a church ordinance, to be observed in church capacity, is pointed out by the fact that it is for those who have been immersed and added to the fellowship of the church.

      E. The Lord’s Supper is never spoken of in connection with individuals. When it is referred to, it is only referred to in reference to baptized believers in local church capacity I Cor. 11:20-26).

      I want to quote Dr. W.W. Hamilton,

      "The individual administration of the ordinance has no Bible warrant and is a relic of Romanism. The Lord’s Supper is a church ordinance, and anything which goes beyond or comes short of this fails for want of scriptural example or command".

      “The practice of taking a little communion kit to hospitals, nursing homes, etc. is unscriptural and does not follow the scriptural example.”

      IT IS RESTRICTED TO A UNITED CHURCH

      A. The Bible in I Cor. 11:18 is very strong in condemning divisions around the Lord’s table. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
      19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
      20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.

      There were no less than four divisions in the Corinthian church.
      I Cor. 1:12: "Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ."

      Because of these divisions, it was impossible for them to scripturally eat the Lord’s Supper. Division in the local church is reason to hold off observing the Lord’s Supper. But there are also other reasons to forego taking the Lord’s Supper. If there is gross sin in the membership we do not take it. Here is scriptural evidence for this: 1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us:
      8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
      10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

      B. At this point, I want to ask these questions: Are there not doctrinal divisions among the many denominations? Is it not our doctrinal differences that cause us to be separate religious bodies?

      IT IS RESTRICTED BY DOCTRINE

      A. Those in the early church at Jerusalem who partook "continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine" Acts 2:42. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

      B. Those that do not hold to apostolic truth are not to partake. This means there is to be discipline in the local body. How can you discipline those who do not belong to the local body? You can’t. The clear command of scripture is to withdraw fellowship from those who are not doctrinally sound.

      II Thes 3:6: "Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us."
      Rom. 16:17: "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them."
      To commune together means to have the same doctrine.
      II Thes. 2:15: "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."
      II John 10-11: "If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds."

      C. Some Baptists in our day have watered down this doctrine by practicing what they call “Close Communion.” By this they mean that they believe that members of another Baptist church may take communion with us because they are of the same beliefs. Once again, this is unscriptural.

      The welcome to the Lord's Table should not be extended beyond the discipline of the local church. When we take the Lord’s Supper there is supposed to be no gross sin among us and no divisions among us. We have no idea of the spiritual condition of another church’s members. If there is sin or division in the case of this other church’s members, we have no way of knowing it. We cannot discipline them because they are not members of our church. This is why we practice “Closed” communion, meaning it is restricted solely to our church membership. 
      So then, in closing I would like to reiterate the three different ideas concerning the Lord’s Supper and who is to take it. 
      Closed Communion = Only members of a single local church. 
      Close Communion = Members of like faith and order may partake. 
      Open Communion = If you claim to be a Christian, or simply attending the service, you may partake. 
      It is no small thing to attempt to change that which was implemented by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 
      Mt. 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. 
      Many of our Baptist churches have a real need to consider the gravity of the act of observing The Lord’s Supper. It is not a light thing that is to be taken casually or without regard to the spiritual condition of ourselves or our church.
      1Co. 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

       28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

       29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

       30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

Discussion Topic - Is Dancing Always Wrong?


Crushmaster
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  • Advanced Member

Morris dancing is basically pagan as this quote from our local Oyster Morris shows.

Our Green Man, who combines the roles of jester and announcer, symbolises in his make-up and costume of white and green the endlessly changing seasons and, in particular, the new life of springtime. The spirit of spring is also represented by the Jack-in-the-Green figure, which is central to the Whitstable May Day celebrations, the highlight of the Oyster Morris Calender.


At the Faversham Hop Festival, they usually have about ½ doz Morris troups. They usually dance outside pubs, one after the other. I once saw one Morris man drinking from a huge pottery beer jug and asked him how much it held, he said it held 3½ pints and that somebody had made it for hiim. That is English pints, total of 70 fluid ounces. (I make that 4.38 US pints.) I hope that wasn't Covenanter. :)
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Morris dancing is basically pagan as this quote from our local Oyster Morris shows.



At the Faversham Hop Festival, they usually have about ½ doz Morris troups. They usually dance outside pubs, one after the other. I once saw one Morris man drinking from a huge pottery beer jug and asked him how much it held, he said it held 3½ pints and that somebody had made it for hiim. That is English pints, total of 70 fluid ounces. (I make that 4.38 US pints.) I hope that wasn't Covenanter. :)


I know only a little about morris dancing but from what I have heard the dances and costumes go back to celebrations by peasants of various significant points in the farming year, such as harvest or the odd day they got off--nothing pagan about that. For example, the blacked-up faces of some dance troupes goes back to poachers blacking their faces up as camouflage. And these 'roots' are only about 500 years old. So to say every morris dancer worldwide is indulging in paganism ("Morris dancing is basically pagan") because a morris dancer near you has injected some paganism into it (and certainly some do) is like saying that every church and body of believers worldwide is pagan because you once saw a church building somewhere in Hull with a gargoyle on it. I'm not saying morris dancing is right, but it should be called what it is.
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Well said, Alimantado. Such country dancing is tuneful, colourful & fun, & a good subject for video. It's origins are lost in the mists of iniquity antiquity. As for pagan rituals, make up any old story, the more bizarre the better.

You have to be very gullible to believe what someone tells you after drinking 3½ pints of beer at each pub visited during an afternoon. What makes you think that it was filled every time? And he could continue dancing on to the next pub?

Tall stories would be made up for the benefit of the audience. My uncle John (a farmer) told me their Spring festival was to ensure that the crops would grow - and that it worked without fail every year ....

I've even heard of folk songs being specially written when they knew a folk song collector was around - a song was always good for a free drink .... & as for the stories ....

Invicta, you are too gullible - you'll be believing all those "left behind" dispensationalism stories next. Tim & Jerry are great story-tellers.

Oh dear! I note that this post is my 666.

Edited by Covenanter
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There is nothing wrong with dancing, per se. There are many different types of dancing. In church, I sometimes move to the music a bit, especially when I am holding my 18 month old, who loves to dance. So that would be more of a dancing unto the Lord as King David did. Though my dancing is not nearly as expressive as his was because no one has accused me of being drunk! haha.

Then there is "social dancing." ie. ballroom dancing, line dancing, square dancing, etc. I see nothing wrong with this either. I suspect that there was dancing at the wedding at Cana where Jesus turned water into wine (though the Bible does not say), it was customary for a wedding feast for there to be social dancing. I see nothing wrong with havinga good time at a social setting. Now I am not much of a dancer in these settings, but many people really enjoy it. I did once dance with an 80 year old woman who really new how to get down on the dance floor. That was trip. I must say she far outdanced me.

Then there is the dancing that is not wise to partake in. That is the grinding and sex dancing that goes on in the nightclub scene. There is no purpose in that type of dancing but sexual arousal, so no good can come of that.

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No, it goes on in churches, and it seems some churches are teaching it, for instants.

A woman called me concerning a SBC Church a few years back. At the end of Vacation Bible school like most they had a program. She said in part it went this way.

The children of about 10 to 16 stood in front of the church, singing a song. They were dressed in tight jeans, shorts, and such. During the song they were swaying their hips back and forth, even turning their back to the congregation while doing this.

Later this program was shown on our local TV station and I watched it, what she said was true. I was quite amazed, after the dancing the pastor stood before the church telling how proud he was of their children, how Christ like they were.

One thing that I did not see that this lady did, the lust that was in the eyes of many of the men watching this event.

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No, it goes on in churches, and it seems some churches are teaching it, for instants.

A woman called me concerning a SBC Church a few years back. At the end of Vacation Bible school like most they had a program. She said in part it went this way.

The children of about 10 to 16 stood in front of the church, singing a song. They were dressed in tight jeans, shorts, and such. During the song they were swaying their hips back and forth, even turning their back to the congregation while doing this.

Later this program was shown on our local TV station and I watched it, what she said was true. I was quite amazed, after the dancing the pastor stood before the church telling how proud he was of their children, how Christ like they were.

One thing that I did not see that this lady did, the lust that was in the eyes of many of the men watching this event.


I've got to respond to two things here. I cannot speak for the dancing that you saw, as I did not see it, but I have two statements:

I fail to see how, Biblically, you can say all dancing is wrong. Dancing is clearly used in worship throughout the Bible.

1. In response to God delivering Israel through the Red Sea, Moses and the nation responded in song in Exodus 15. There was much singing and dancing in response to what God did for them. “And Miriam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took a timbrel in her hand; and all the women went out after her with timbrels and with dances.” Exodus 15:20

2. WHen the nation of Israel recoverd the Arc and brought it back, there was much rejoicing, praise, music and dancing. 5And David and all the house of Israel played before the LORD on all manner of instruments made of fir wood, even on harps, and on psalteries, and on timbrels, and on cornets, and on cymbals. Exodus 16:5. 14And David danced before the LORD with all his might; and David was girded with a linen ephod.

15So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouting, and with the sound of the trumpet.

16And as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David, Michal Saul's daughter looked through a window, and saw king David leaping and dancing before the LORD; and she despised him in her heart.

3. David also refers to dance as a form of worship in some of the Psalms he wrote. For example:

“Let them praise his name in the dance: let them sing praises unto him with the timbrel and harp.”

Psalm 149:3

“Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs.”

Psalm 150:4

So I do not see how, Scripturally, you can say all dancing is wrong and all dancing is not appropriate in worship. When we gather in the name of Christ, and we lift our hearts in song, some people also lift their hands and dance in praise to our Creator.

Second, the other thing that bothers me about your statement is that men looked on children with lust. Really?!!? I have never known a man to do so. It does go on with pedophiles, but I cannot see how men in church could possibly look at children with lust. It makes me wonder if this woman had been abused as a child and has resentful feelings towards men. I don't know what the situation was, but to use that statement to say all dancing is wrong seems inapproriate to me. Normal people just do not think that way about children, and I am a bit bothered that this is what the woman you know immediately thought.
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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist



I've got to respond to two things here. I cannot speak for the dancing that you saw, as I did not see it, but I have two statements:

I fail to see how, Biblically, you can say all dancing is wrong. Dancing is clearly used in worship throughout the Bible.

1. In response to God delivering Israel through the Red Sea, Moses and the nation responded in song in Exodus 15. There was much singing and dancing in response to what God did for them. “And Miriam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took a timbrel in her hand; and all the women went out after her with timbrels and with dances.” Exodus 15:20

2. WHen the nation of Israel recoverd the Arc and brought it back, there was much rejoicing, praise, music and dancing. 5And David and all the house of Israel played before the LORD on all manner of instruments made of fir wood, even on harps, and on psalteries, and on timbrels, and on cornets, and on cymbals. Exodus 16:5. 14And David danced before the LORD with all his might; and David was girded with a linen ephod.

15So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouting, and with the sound of the trumpet.

16And as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David, Michal Saul's daughter looked through a window, and saw king David leaping and dancing before the LORD; and she despised him in her heart.

3. David also refers to dance as a form of worship in some of the Psalms he wrote. For example:

“Let them praise his name in the dance: let them sing praises unto him with the timbrel and harp.”

Psalm 149:3

“Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs.”

Psalm 150:4

So I do not see how, Scripturally, you can say all dancing is wrong and all dancing is not appropriate in worship. When we gather in the name of Christ, and we lift our hearts in song, some people also lift their hands and dance in praise to our Creator.

Second, the other thing that bothers me about your statement is that men looked on children with lust. Really?!!? I have never known a man to do so. It does go on with pedophiles, but I cannot see how men in church could possibly look at children with lust. It makes me wonder if this woman had been abused as a child and has resentful feelings towards men. I don't know what the situation was, but to use that statement to say all dancing is wrong seems inapproriate to me. Normal people just do not think that way about children, and I am a bit bothered that this is what the woman you know immediately thought.

I've looked, but I don't see in that post where it was said that all dancing is wrong.

Not all dancing is wrong, but most dancing done today is wrong. Dancing done unto the Lord is done in a very different spirit than is most dancing today. The dress, music and style of dancing then was greatly different from most of what is seen today.

Unfortunately I've seen many churches attempt to spice up their programs and plays by incorporating worldy dance styles which are sexual in nature. While I've never heard or seen anyone lusting after children, I have heard and seen men lusting after those around 13 and older, as well as having heard women discussing sexual aspects about some of the girls in that age range. Of course, had the girls been dressed modestly and not performing sexually inspired "dance" moves, this likely would not have occured.
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I've got to respond to two things here. I cannot speak for the dancing that you saw, as I did not see it, but I have two statements:

I fail to see how, Biblically, you can say all dancing is wrong. Dancing is clearly used in worship throughout the Bible.

1. In response to God delivering Israel through the Red Sea, Moses and the nation responded in song in Exodus 15. There was much singing and dancing in response to what God did for them. “And Miriam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took a timbrel in her hand; and all the women went out after her with timbrels and with dances.” Exodus 15:20

2. WHen the nation of Israel recoverd the Arc and brought it back, there was much rejoicing, praise, music and dancing. 5And David and all the house of Israel played before the LORD on all manner of instruments made of fir wood, even on harps, and on psalteries, and on timbrels, and on cornets, and on cymbals. Exodus 16:5. 14And David danced before the LORD with all his might; and David was girded with a linen ephod.

15So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouting, and with the sound of the trumpet.

16And as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David, Michal Saul's daughter looked through a window, and saw king David leaping and dancing before the LORD; and she despised him in her heart.

3. David also refers to dance as a form of worship in some of the Psalms he wrote. For example:

“Let them praise his name in the dance: let them sing praises unto him with the timbrel and harp.”

Psalm 149:3

“Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs.”

Psalm 150:4

So I do not see how, Scripturally, you can say all dancing is wrong and all dancing is not appropriate in worship. When we gather in the name of Christ, and we lift our hearts in song, some people also lift their hands and dance in praise to our Creator.

Second, the other thing that bothers me about your statement is that men looked on children with lust. Really?!!? I have never known a man to do so. It does go on with pedophiles, but I cannot see how men in church could possibly look at children with lust. It makes me wonder if this woman had been abused as a child and has resentful feelings towards men. I don't know what the situation was, but to use that statement to say all dancing is wrong seems inapproriate to me. Normal people just do not think that way about children, and I am a bit bothered that this is what the woman you know immediately thought.





So are you saying that you support girls dressing in the manner I stated, swaying their hips back and forth with their backs turned to the congregation? You seemingly thinking this type of thing is OK in a Church bothers me very much. There is to many Christians with that mind set, while we are told this.

1Ti 2:9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;

There is nothing modest about what I described. Yet you seem to defend it. By the way, I suggest to the woman who told me this that she ought to find herself another church, she did while never stepping foot back in that church.

Oh, and the other, I don't suppose you have ever seen a man's eyes glued to a immodest dressed female and the gleam that's in their eyes.

PS. Thank you John, its appreciated. Edited by Jerry80871852
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So are you saying that you support girls dressing in the manner I stated, swaying their hips back and forth with their backs turned to the congregation? You seemingly thinking this type of thing is OK in a Church bothers me very much. There is to many Christians with that mind set, while we are told this.

1Ti 2:9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;

There is nothing modest about what I described. Yet you seem to defend it. By the way, I suggest to the woman who told me this that she ought to find herself another church, she did while never stepping foot back in that church.

Oh, and the other, I don't suppose you have ever seen a man's eyes glued to a immodest dressed female and the gleam that's in their eyes.

PS. Thank you John, its appreciated.


No, I did not say that was ok. I can't really judge without having seen it..

I am sorry if I misinterpreted your post. I'm not defending or criticizing something I have not seen.

I took your post to mean all dancing is wrong. I cannot say that all dancing is wrong.

I did think this woman's comments are very strange. As I said, it is not normal for men to lust after children, even if they are immodestly dressed. That does not really become a danger until the high school age. But VBS children are too young for men to be lusting after. WHat I am saying is that I find it very strange that this woman interpreted what she saw as men lusting when it involved children. If that is the case, that church has very serious problems.

I do think dancing in church can be appropriate. One of our associate pastors is African American, and when the music goes, he dances unto the Lord. It is quite moving and beautiful to see. He does not dance in a flashy way, but in a way that exalts the Lord and moves others to worship as well. Edited by kindofblue1977
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Allow me to throw my views into the ring. I apologize for not having done so sooner; unfortunately, in terms of Online things, I have been slacking off lately. I will try to present a Biblical and right view. Thank you for reading.

First, the simple question: is dancing always wrong? No. Simply, no. Dancing was not looked on as "evil" in Scripture; rather, I think just the opposite. Obviously, for married, we can agree that it is not evil; for unmarried, I do not believe so either. Depending, of course, upon what kind of dancing is going on. For example, I have seen in movies set in the 1800s, where unmarried couples would be dancing. There was nothing dirty or wrong about it. It can be, yes; many things can be "made" evil. We humans are quite good at that...

On the issue of music, since it has come up: I have heard people say that drums are evil. This is not supported in Scripture whatsoever. Christian Contemporary is evil (undoubtedly, some [much?] is, but not because of the music itself)...and so on, and so forth. None of this views can be backed by Scripture. They say, "You can't mix the devil's music with God." Yes, no doubt. But...what is the devil's music? Why should he get any of it? Shouldn't it be used for good and right purposes?

Allow me to quote Psalm 150: (Psalms 150 KJV) - "Praise ye the LORD. Praise God in his sanctuary: praise him in the firmament of his power. {2} Praise him for his mighty acts: praise him according to his excellent greatness. {3} Praise him with the sound of the trumpet: praise him with the psaltery and harp. {4} Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs. {5} Praise him upon the loud cymbals: praise him upon the high sounding cymbals. {6} Let every thing that hath breath praise the LORD. Praise ye the LORD."

Every type of instrument - including percussion - is included in this Psalm, to be used in praise to God. I listen to CCM on a daily basis, and it has not hindered by spiritual walk - it has done just the opposite. God has blessed me and moved me through what some would call "devil music" or some other interesting title. Without some of the songs, well...God has used these songs so, so, so much in my life. It has helped keep me going through these two difficult, past years.

Well, I probably didn't do a very good job, but there you go. I hope it will make you think. Thanks for reading.
God bless,
Joel ><>.
2 Chronicles 7:14.

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist



No, I did not say that was ok. I can't really judge without having seen it..

I am sorry if I misinterpreted your post. I'm not defending or criticizing something I have not seen.

I took your post to mean all dancing is wrong. I cannot say that all dancing is wrong.

I did think this woman's comments are very strange. As I said, it is not normal for men to lust after children, even if they are immodestly dressed. That does not really become a danger until the high school age. But VBS children are too young for men to be lusting after. WHat I am saying is that I find it very strange that this woman interpreted what she saw as men lusting when it involved children. If that is the case, that church has very serious problems.

I do think dancing in church can be appropriate. One of our associate pastors is African American, and when the music goes, he dances unto the Lord. It is quite moving and beautiful to see. He does not dance in a flashy way, but in a way that exalts the Lord and moves others to worship as well.


Your amazing, I tell you that 10 to 16 years olds, dressed in tight jeans, shorts, oh, there was one or two that had short dresses on, standing in front of the church, with their backs to the congregation, while singing a song, swinging their hips back and forth, and you can't say there was no wrong.

Forget it, you have no idea what godly modesty is about.


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I listen to CCM on a daily basis, and it has not hindered by spiritual walk - it has done just the opposite. God has blessed me and moved me through what some would call "devil music" or some other interesting title.


Well, ultimately that is your choice, but whether it has really helped you spiritually or not could be a matter of some dispute. As I recall, and forgive me if my memory is a bit fuzzy, but since you joined the board several years ago I seem to recall you have drifted into some degree of Calvinism, assumed a post-trib view you did not previously hold, as well as having a few other doctrinal shifts here and there that I seem to vaguely recall and felt were for the worse but forget exactly what they were. To me it seems like you have shown a increasing degree of confusion and a tendency to drift in the wrong directions, how much that is related to music I can't say one way or another, but a shift on your part , in my perception for the worse, is something I have noticed over the last several years and it is something I have prayed for you about in the past. You can consider that possibility or ignore it but that has been my perception over time.
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I wouldn't say dancing is wrong in all situations because;
Ec 3:1 ¶ To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
Ecclesiastes 3:4 A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
It is hard for me to discern on this matter though. Certainly i would not approve of non-married couples dancing "together" But in the same room modestly; I don't see a problem as long as it isn't worldly and anything that could cause lust.


In regards to CCM, I would not listen to it today. Though it did help me as i made the transition to conservative music (Which the Lord has helped me to enjoy. I was really picky when it came to music. It had to be almost musically flawless). I wouldn't recommend it though. It would most likely have been better to abstain though I didn't know it at the time. I thought music was music.

I haven't find specific yes or no to certain instruments but, so i can see CrushMaster's point; but, I believe there are principles which we can apply which would lead us away from CCM.


Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
CCM is conformed to this world, "pop" and "contemporary music" (normally main elements in CCM) which as I understand was the spawn of "Rock" (I don't like to bring the term up after i learned what it was named for..) with a deceiving appearance. It also often waters down the truth (if there is any to be found in the lyrics.) It is certainly the Worldly' Music most if not all of the time.


Ro 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
Ro 14:14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
Ro 14:15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.
Ro 14:16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of:
Ro 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

Many, I'm sure could not like the type of music. They have knowledge of its counterpart and were heavily in it and perhaps some of the darker side which can accompany it. It could cause lust after old things and cause a stumbling block. Which is another principle against CCM.


I think we can also use these scriptures for principle.
De 12:29 When the LORD thy God shall cut off the nations from before thee, whither thou goest to possess them, and thou succeedest them, and dwellest in their land;
De 12:30 Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou inquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise.
De 12:31 Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.
De 12:32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

I think I'll leave this topic for now with these verses. but, even if it is good. Which I can't see at this point.

Ro 14:16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of:
1Th 5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.


(another edit: I also noticed most if not all the previous verses can be also applied to dancing; 1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.)

Edited by Nathaniel
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Your amazing, I tell you that 10 to 16 years olds, dressed in tight jeans, shorts, oh, there was one or two that had short dresses on, standing in front of the church, with their backs to the congregation, while singing a song, swinging their hips back and forth, and you can't say there was no wrong.

Forget it, you have no idea what godly modesty is about.


You said nothing about 16 year olds. You said children in Vacation BIble School, which in every church I have been in is for 12 years and under, so the oldest would have been 12.

What I am saying is that it is not normal for grown men to look at children 12 years and under in a lustful manner. I don't question the dance moves you described. I question what this lady really saw. I do not question that she had these thoughts that men were lusting, but I seriously doubt any man in a church, unless there is a pedophile in their midst, would even have any sort of sexual thought about a child 12 or under.

Even if the dance moves were as you described, no normal man would have such a thought for young children. If they were in their mid to upper teens, perhaps, but 12 and under, no.

I am not saying their dancing in church was right. I am just saying that based upon what you initially wrote, I was really surprised that the issue of lust came up towards children in VBS. Astonished really, that someone would see that and associate children and lust together. It really makes me wonder if she was injured by sexual abuse in the past, because most adults, even if they thought the dancing was not appropriate rightfully so, would not think men were lusting after children.

I don't know how I can clarrify myself any more. I'm not being argumentative, I am just taking issue with men in church reportedly lusting after VBS children. I do not doubt that is what this woman who reported to you thought she saw, but I just cannot beleive a roomful of church people would associate lust and children, even if the children were dressed immodestly. IF that is the case, children should not be in that church at all.
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KOB - just to forestall an argument, I wanted to insert here that, in Jerry8's original post about the dancing, he did mention 10-16 year olds.

One thing to remember, also, is that many times girls develop quickly and there are 11 and 12 year olds who are mistaken for being older. When I was 11, people thought I was about 15...

Children today learn to be seductive in their movements by watching things on tv. One of my nieces loved to "dance" around the house, just moving around even if there was no music. As she got to be around 10 years old, her movements ceased to be the carefree movements of an innocent child and quite obviously became seductive. Now, I realize that sounds funny, but that is the only way to describe it. Girls (even Christian girls) look to role models like Miley Cyrus, Brittany Spears, etc. and mimic their dress and actions.

When things like what Jerry8 described come into churches, there will be many of the children whose movements will be seductive. No, they don't really know what they are doing (well, by13 or so they definitely do!), but there it is.

I can't say whether what this woman saw was lust or not: she cannot read minds. However, when nubile female bodies which are not modestly dressed sway and move to a beat in front of male eyes, it won't be just the pedophiles who are affected.

One sad thing I have noticed over the years is that many churches no longer expect modesty and decorum from their youth...and parents who may try and teach it in the home are fighting a losing battle if the church they attend doesn't support that.

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KOB - just to forestall an argument, I wanted to insert here that, in Jerry8's original post about the dancing, he did mention 10-16 year olds.

One thing to remember, also, is that many times girls develop quickly and there are 11 and 12 year olds who are mistaken for being older. When I was 11, people thought I was about 15...

Children today learn to be seductive in their movements by watching things on tv. One of my nieces loved to "dance" around the house, just moving around even if there was no music. As she got to be around 10 years old, her movements ceased to be the carefree movements of an innocent child and quite obviously became seductive. Now, I realize that sounds funny, but that is the only way to describe it. Girls (even Christian girls) look to role models like Miley Cyrus, Brittany Spears, etc. and mimic their dress and actions.

When things like what Jerry8 described come into churches, there will be many of the children whose movements will be seductive. No, they don't really know what they are doing (well, by13 or so they definitely do!), but there it is.

I can't say whether what this woman saw was lust or not: she cannot read minds. However, when nubile female bodies which are not modestly dressed sway and move to a beat in front of male eyes, it won't be just the pedophiles who are affected.

One sad thing I have noticed over the years is that many churches no longer expect modesty and decorum from their youth...and parents who may try and teach it in the home are fighting a losing battle if the church they attend doesn't support that.


Sorry. I didn't see 16 year old mentioned in the original post. My apologies.

I still do not see how an adult who is normal (I'm not talking pedophiles) can lust after a 10-12 year old. I can see how boys aged 13 or 14 could, and that is a separate issue altogether because that is normal. But even if a 10 year old moves "seductively," I fail to see how an adult would lust.

I am sorry I misinterpreted. To be clear, I am not justifying or defending any action, and certainly do not agree that that sort of dancing is appropriate in church.

I just found the comment about lust combined with children very unusual and bothersome, and I highly doubt a hoard of men in the church looked at the children in that manner. Now if the comment had been made about boys right around their age having those thoughts, I can totally buy that.
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