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Reply to a Pastor About My Warning of Lancaster's Music


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Cubfan.

There are different schools with different standards. I have met many preachers who have graduated from schools that I myself would never go to that are doing a great job. I graduated from PCC. PCC holds to an unscriptural position on the local church and separation. Yet there are a number of excellent preachers who have graduated from there that do not hold to their position. If one has a music standard that is contrary to West Coast, don't go there. Just because they hold to a certain music standard, doesn't mean that every graduate from there will hold to it.

BJU has a extremely conservative position on music. I don't like BJU, but if that is what you want, go there.

What makes me sick is the constant trashing of good schools because they don't fit your exact mold.

Now I will make one exception to this and that is doctrinal error. There are many instances in Scripture where the Apostles called out by name heretics. That is why I have no problem calling Mr. Ruckman for what he is, a heretic.


So, in other words, finding a good preacher-training school is about as varied as an IFB church (if I understand correctly), as there will probably be differences in some fashion from one IFB church to another....
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Is any hymnal perfect? Can we all say that we agree with the standard, or even certain doctrinal positions, of those who wrote many of the hymns in most of our hymnbooks? Is it okay that some hymns were set to the contempory tunes of folk, tavern and other songs of their day?

Is it the lyrics of the song that matter or does the one writing the song have to have perfect doctrine and standards and avoid any music forms or styles that might be contemporary or that somebody in the world has used?

Is it okay to have hymns played on piano when many of our ancestors would have denounced such because piano's were common in taverns and saloons and piano music was used by the wicked?

David was far from perfect yet God used him to put forth many of the psalms in Scripture. David used various loud instruments and even danced as he praised God with music. Does this make his psalms unacceptable?

We might even want to consider that at one point only those songs taken from the Psalms were accepted as proper music within churches.

Even one of many's favorites, Amazing Grace, was not overly well accepted when it first came forth. The song never did really catch on in England but eventually did so in America some years later.

What is the standard for a song being okay for a Christian to sing?

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Is any hymnal perfect? Can we all say that we agree with the standard, or even certain doctrinal positions, of those who wrote many of the hymns in most of our hymnbooks? Is it okay that some hymns were set to the contempory tunes of folk, tavern and other songs of their day?

Is it the lyrics of the song that matter or does the one writing the song have to have perfect doctrine and standards and avoid any music forms or styles that might be contemporary or that somebody in the world has used?

Is it okay to have hymns played on piano when many of our ancestors would have denounced such because piano's were common in taverns and saloons and piano music was used by the wicked?

David was far from perfect yet God used him to put forth many of the psalms in Scripture. David used various loud instruments and even danced as he praised God with music. Does this make his psalms unacceptable?

We might even want to consider that at one point only those songs taken from the Psalms were accepted as proper music within churches.

Even one of many's favorites, Amazing Grace, was not overly well accepted when it first came forth. The song never did really catch on in England but eventually did so in America some years later.

What is the standard for a song being okay for a Christian to sing?


Good question....as I've been in my IFB church, I've learned alot, but also occasionally question why we do or don't do certain things. I'm still learning, and have been convicted of many things that I used to do prior to finding my current church.
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Cubfan,

Absolutely. Unfortunately there are many flavors of the IFB movement. It is why you see hundeds of baptist churches in 1 small city. Each camp won't get a long with the other.

Don't get me wrong, I am not an ecumenicalist. I believe very strongly in separation for doctrinal issues. By doctrinal, I mean one of the major doctrines of our faith.

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I like David Cloud. His job is to keep people informed. I assume he is close enough to God that God is leading him in what he is doing. I'd say if you don't agree with him, then that's fine...but I would not say that just because a person disagrees with him makes him actually wrong.

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I like David Cloud. His job is to keep people informed.


I personally find that I agree with him about 95% of the time, and of the remaining 5% or so about half the time I disagree and the other half of the time I neither agree or disagree. That is about as much as I agree with anybody and a lot more often than I agree with most. As far as "trashing "good" schools" or Cloud having an "itchy trigger finger" that is always going to be a matter of opinion. Myself I would much rather see people overwarned than underwarned. It might also have to do with a difference in perspective about how "drastic" an action putting a warning out is. Some take it as if giving a warning is a drastic last ditch measure akin to calling someone a heretic, but to me warnings like this are merely an alert to make sure people are not letting the ship drift off course without realizing it. The earlier a change in course is detected the easier it is to right it. If I hear a warning or a caution from anyone whose opinions I consider to frequently be worthwhile(be that Cloud or someone else) about a given school, ministry or what have you I don't automatically reject that ministry or school based on that, but I do tend to be very cautious about it. If they are squarely in the right and desiring to stay on course then the extra scrutiny doesn't hurt them a bit. What does hurt is when some ministry has a good name but has been drifting off course and people get drawn into that current without even realizing what is happening.
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It is a pastor's responsibility to educate his people, not a para church organization like David Clouds.


Education is where you can find it, it should not just come from the pastor, I am very glad that there are many sources of information out there for people to accept or reject as they choose. If the pastor is the only one "educating" his people and they never look at anything else that is a situation just waiting for abuse. I like and trust my pastor, but I never had a pastor that I would trust anywhere near as completely as your post implies and I am glad of it.
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Seth,

It is why Christianity is so devisive now. The BBF, FBF, Sword, Hyles, and all these other groups within Fundamental Independent Baptists want to criticize each other over a topic like Music, which is very subjectional. There are far more important things to be concerned with than what music West Coast uses unless you or someone you know are planning on going there. David Cloud's letter was not necessary. He can put any of his beliefs on his website. However, when you start sending out open letters, you as an individual have gone too far. Maybe we should find some fault in his beliefs and send out a letter against him. Here's one better, let's find something with Bro. Matt. I am sure we all disagree with him on something. His father and I disagree on a couple things, so it wouldn't shock me if we disagree. Maybe I should send a letter out to all the churches of America warning them that Dan and Matt Souza are dangerous because they don't agree with me.

It is ludicrous and these kind of things should not be supported. David cloud ought to be ashamed, but he isn't because he is too arrogant to realize his errors

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I would love to see Cloud balance out his negativity with some positive things. This article is a good example, he tells you who you should not listen too, but does not tell you who you should listen too.
He is like the guy at work that always complains about everything and you never hear him say anything positive about anyone. Eventually you get tired of hearing him talk.

I would say I agree with cloud about 85% of the time. This is not one of the 85%. :)

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I would love to see Cloud balance out his negativity with some positive things. This article is a good example, he tells you who you should not listen too, but does not tell you who you should listen too.
He is like the guy at work that always complains about everything and you never hear him say anything positive about anyone. Eventually you get tired of hearing him talk.

I would say I agree with cloud about 85% of the time. This is not one of the 85%. :)


:amen: Scripture examples this very well. For example, we are told in Scripture what the works of the flesh are, then we are told what the works of the Spirit are which should replace them.
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I like David Cloud. His job is to keep people informed. I assume he is close enough to God that God is leading him in what he is doing. I'd say if you don't agree with him, then that's fine...but I would not say that just because a person disagrees with him makes him actually wrong.


I like David Cloud too, when he's talking about doctrine. I know the Lord uses him, and I guess he’s close to God. He certainly spends a lot of time in the book!

However, being close to God doesn't make one incapable of being deceived, and it certainly doesn't make nullify the tendencies of the flesh.

I think brother Cloud has demonstrated that he has a tendency towards bomb throwing. He’s not the first to be like that and he won’t be the last.

I don’t like it when anyone makes it part of their ministry to go after other KJVO, separated, soul-winning, fundamental, pre-millennial ministries that are trying to serve the Lord.
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I don't think he's trying to go after other good ministries; my impression is that he wants those ministries to stay good!


His attitude does come across wrong sometimes, but I've met him in person several times -- he really doesn't come across like that in real life. We humans have such a tendency to blindly follow the leader, and like to forget that just because a ministry used to be all good doesn't mean it still is (I'm not referring to anyone in particular here, just saying). I appreciate that he attempts to protect people from blindly following a downward spiral by pointing out problems as they begin to be apparent.

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I have never met a ministry (or another person) who is "all good." I know I certainly am not. I also know God has not called me to be judge of such things. I also know that I am incredibly thankful that God shows mercy through Jesus Christ, rather than broadcasting all my sins before others........

Edited by trc123
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It is why Christianity is so devisive now. The BBF, FBF, Sword, Hyles, and all these other groups within Fundamental Independent Baptists want to criticize each other over a topic like Music, which is very subjectional.


Christianity always has been "divisive" and there has always been disagreements and problems. Even within the lifetime of the apostles there were many criticizing them. Paul at least didn't have very many people he could trust either near the end of his ministry so no doubt that mistrust was mutual. I don't see the modern times as being more divisive than is normal.

Maybe we should find some fault in his beliefs and send out a letter against him.


If you think you have, feel free.

David Cloud's letter was not necessary. He can put any of his beliefs on his website. However, when you start sending out open letters, you as an individual have gone too far


Unless I am mistaken you have to sign up to get his letters, and in that case I fail to see much difference between that and putting something on his website. I guess I do not see the benefit of "shutting up" for the sake of "getting along" until things get "really bad". I still think the earlier you address a problem the better the chances of fixing it. If you let things slide and let things slide for the sake of peace and unity pretty soon it ends up a mess and you never really get unity anyway. You see the results of letting to many things slide everywhere from churches to baptist internet forums and it almost never works out well. I fail to see what sort of real problem a letter expressing disapproval of their music causes. If you don't consider the type of music they are using to be an issue then you have no problem, you simply ignore it, but if you don't like it then you at least know what they are using. The only possible issues I can see is a college possibly loosing "recruits" that don't care for the music they are using and the potential for a few slightly bruised feelings. After all it isn't exactly as if he called for baptists to sever all ties with them, called them heretics, children of the devil, or what not. It merely seems as if he was expressing his opinion that their music was not as good as it could be and that it was heading in the wrong direction currently. Edited by Seth-Doty
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