Members RSS Robot Posted February 21, 2011 Members Share Posted February 21, 2011 February 21, 2011 (David Cloud, Fundamental Baptist Information Service, P.O. Box 610368, Port Huron, MI 48061, 866-295-4143, fbns@wayoflife.org; for instructions about subscribing and unsubscribing or changing addresses, see the information paragraph at the end of the article)The following is slightly edited edition of a couple of e-mails I sent to a pastor who wrote to express his deep concern at how I handled the matter of warning about Lancaster Baptist Church’s music. He believes I am sowing discord. This pastor called Brother Paul Chappell and they talked for an hour about the matter. _______________________________Thank you for the e-mail and for your concern in this matter.I'm glad that you called Pastor Chappell. Others have also probably contacted him. It sounds like you and he had a nice anti-Cloud fest, but I am not the issue here. I do not regret that I sent out that mailing, though I did regret it at one point and at one level. (If you think I enjoy the trouble that this type of thing engenders, you are profoundly wrong. Humanly speaking, I get nothing in return but personal attacks and closed doors.) But perhaps it will stir things up enough for a real direction change. It has certainly brought the issue under a lot of attention. I am convinced that a private conversation from me or from any other one person would have done very little. Real public pressure has to be brought to bear in these cases.I would have guessed that Bro. Chappell would renounce his use of "Shout to the Lord," but that is only the tip of the iceberg. View the full article Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Pastorj Posted February 22, 2011 Members Share Posted February 22, 2011 This is just another reason I can't stand David Cloud's ministry. West Coast is doing a tremendous job of preparing young men for the ministry. If you don't agree with their music standard, don't go there. It is a pastor's responsibility to educate his people, not a para church organization like David Clouds. He was arrogant in his letter when he stated that if they would read my stuff, they would understand the dangers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members John81 Posted February 22, 2011 Members Share Posted February 22, 2011 Yes, Cloud does go overboard sometimes and he does sometimes seem to take to high a view of himself. I tried to corresponed with him regarding a matter several years ago and he was very terse and arrogant. His second reply to me was that he had set forth his position and everyone should stop discussing it because he was right and wasn't going to talk about it anymore. There is far too much shooting our own in the foot, too much turning what should be a private conversation into a public debate, too much division and strife brought about rather than constructive discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members trc123 Posted February 22, 2011 Members Share Posted February 22, 2011 This is just another reason I can't stand David Cloud's ministry. West Coast is doing a tremendous job of preparing young men for the ministry. If you don't agree with their music standard, don't go there. It is a pastor's responsibility to educate his people, not a para church organization like David Clouds. He was arrogant in his letter when he stated that if they would read my stuff, they would understand the dangers. Yes, Cloud does go overboard sometimes and he does sometimes seem to take to high a view of himself. I tried to corresponed with him regarding a matter several years ago and he was very terse and arrogant. His second reply to me was that he had set forth his position and everyone should stop discussing it because he was right and wasn't going to talk about it anymore. There is far too much shooting our own in the foot, too much turning what should be a private conversation into a public debate, too much division and strife brought about rather than constructive discussion. Wow, I agree with both of you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Pastor Matt Posted February 22, 2011 Administrators Share Posted February 22, 2011 Wow, I agree with both of you! I feel the love. :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 1John2:15-17 Posted February 22, 2011 Members Share Posted February 22, 2011 I'm neither pro Cloud or against him as I don't know enough about him. However, my question is in reference to "West Coast does a great job preparing men for the ministry " and "if you don't like their music don't go..." I've only been IFB for about 4 years. I used to listen and watch CCM/Darlene Z (and others), until I learned that CCM, etc. is inappropriate as it is, as mentioned in a related thread, charismatic, rockish, etc. I remember the videos which resemble rock concerts. So my question, with all due respect-if West Coast is doing such a good job at preparing men for the ministry, aren't they doing their preacher boys to be a great disservice by utilizing CCM? By allowing this type of music are they not compromising with the world and telling the preacher boys to be that compromise with the world in music is OK? Aren't went be separated from the world and not give any appearance of being worldly? A little leaven will ruin the whole loaf. Isn't acceptance of CCM in the church (much less in a preacher school) leaving the door cracked open for Satan? Where does the compromise stop? If CCM is ok for a church or preacher school, then whats wrong with having Rick Warren or Joel Osteen teach courses on church growth or salvation? To me, allowing things such as CCM just continues to blur the lines between the saved and unsaved, which is just what the devil wants. Seth Doty 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 1John2:15-17 Posted February 22, 2011 Members Share Posted February 22, 2011 Just to be clear, I'm not a fan of the Gaither concerts either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 I've noted a hint of arrogance in Cloud's comments (past and present) but, then I note some here from us (I'm in that us) occassionally. It's easy for me to recognize it in him because people aren't mirrors. However, if we take his comments and compare by the "perfect law of liberty" there is a reflection back to us. I don't support CCM/CCW music myself. Although his style "scrapes on my blackboard" I agree with his content. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators HappyChristian Posted February 22, 2011 Administrators Share Posted February 22, 2011 So, a pastor is above reproof by another brother who sees error? Please, cite that scripture.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Brother Rick Posted February 22, 2011 Members Share Posted February 22, 2011 I think Brother Cloud has an itchy trigger finger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Pastorj Posted February 23, 2011 Members Share Posted February 23, 2011 Cubfan. There are different schools with different standards. I have met many preachers who have graduated from schools that I myself would never go to that are doing a great job. I graduated from PCC. PCC holds to an unscriptural position on the local church and separation. Yet there are a number of excellent preachers who have graduated from there that do not hold to their position. If one has a music standard that is contrary to West Coast, don't go there. Just because they hold to a certain music standard, doesn't mean that every graduate from there will hold to it. BJU has a extremely conservative position on music. I don't like BJU, but if that is what you want, go there. What makes me sick is the constant trashing of good schools because they don't fit your exact mold. Now I will make one exception to this and that is doctrinal error. There are many instances in Scripture where the Apostles called out by name heretics. That is why I have no problem calling Mr. Ruckman for what he is, a heretic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Brother Rick Posted February 23, 2011 Members Share Posted February 23, 2011 Now I will make one exception to this and that is doctrinal error. There are many instances in Scripture where the Apostles called out by name heretics. That is why I have no problem calling Mr. Ruckman for what he is, a heretic. At least you're consistent............. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members John81 Posted February 23, 2011 Members Share Posted February 23, 2011 Cubfan. There are different schools with different standards. I have met many preachers who have graduated from schools that I myself would never go to that are doing a great job. I graduated from PCC. PCC holds to an unscriptural position on the local church and separation. Yet there are a number of excellent preachers who have graduated from there that do not hold to their position. If one has a music standard that is contrary to West Coast, don't go there. Just because they hold to a certain music standard, doesn't mean that every graduate from there will hold to it. BJU has a extremely conservative position on music. I don't like BJU, but if that is what you want, go there. What makes me sick is the constant trashing of good schools because they don't fit your exact mold. Now I will make one exception to this and that is doctrinal error. There are many instances in Scripture where the Apostles called out by name heretics. That is why I have no problem calling Mr. Ruckman for what he is, a heretic. Well put. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members brosmith Posted February 23, 2011 Members Share Posted February 23, 2011 There are different schools with different standards. ... What makes me sick is the constant trashing of good schools because they don't fit your exact mold. We are not talking about "trashing" good schools. We are talking about exposing error and warning people about what is coming down the pike. If a church or a school publically proclaims that they are against contemporary Christian music then it is hypocritical for them to utilize contemporary Christian music in any fashion or form. Lancaster Baptist Church is not the only big name church that is following the contemporary path. North Valley Baptist Church in Santa Clara, California is doing the same thing. On their website, Pastor Jack Trieber has a video warning churches and musicians about contemporary Christian music. However, their own hymn book (which they publish) has many contemporary and charismatic songs in it (included a lot of Bill Gaither's music). This is not only hypocritical but it is downright deceitful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Pastorj Posted February 23, 2011 Members Share Posted February 23, 2011 What is contemporary. I have heard people say that Ron Hamilton is contemporary. Everyone has a different definition of what is contemporary. There are a lot of wonderful songs that people discard because they were written in the last 20 years. There are a lot of verses dealing with Music in Scripture. Unfortunately a lot of people have a lot of different interpretations of those scriptures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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