Matthew 24 Fulfilled

[John81]

Has anyone read the following book? Is this view common or becoming more common within the SBC? Anyone familiar with the evangelist/reverend who wrote the book?

Southern Baptist Evangelist says
Jesus NOT coming back soon...


Matthew 24 Fulfilled


It was Jesus who said: "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be....Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass til all these things be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away." (Matthew 24:21, 34-35)

In his book, Southern Baptist Reverend John Bray states:

"Present-day students of eschatology seem woefully ignorant of the writings of past theologians on these subjects. There was a time (prior to the mid-1800s) when the most prominent interpretation of Matthew 24 was from the preterite standpoint, and the dating of Revelation was believed to be at an earlier date than is now believed."

Grasp what this book teaches, and you won't waste any more of your time on the pre-mil, pre-trib fiction put out by the so-called "prophecy experts." Matthew 24 Fulfilled examines the issues related to popular "end-times" hysteria and counters with a view consistent with all of Scripture.

[Bro Jim]

No I have not read his book, but it sounds consistent with the fact the the once great SBC has gone away from what it was based on and that was the Bible (KJB) and what happens when people start to use "new revelation" It sounds like the "Rev" wants to sell books, and you can't sell something today of you don't have a "controversial" twist to it, nor can people be lead astray if there are not some "intellectual" giving credence to false teachings.

Th preterist idea/belief had not ever come to my attention ( I ain't a Bible scholar) until this last week went I was approached about the pre-wrath (not to start discussion on this, i have found that this has been hashed and rehash in other threads and have come to impasse), buit to say I am a pre-tribulation believer and teacher.

Anyhow I am looking for Jesus Christ to return, and I believe it could happen at any time.

Post script, If he can sell his book to SBC'ers then he has a pretty big audience anyhow.

[Covenanter]

Another Preterist I've got company

Has anyone read the following book? Is this view common or becoming more common within the SBC? Anyone familiar with the evangelist/reverend who wrote the book?

Southern Baptist Evangelist says
Jesus NOT coming back soon...
Preterism does not say prophecy ended in AD 70, we look forward to our Lord returning in glory for resurrection & judgment.

Matthew 24 Fulfilled
However, the signs in Mat. 24, Mark 13 & Luke 21 referred to the destruction of the temple & the city of Jerusalem. The Jerusalem Christians saw the signs & fled the city 3½ years before the destruction. The first part of Mat. 24 1-34 was fulfilled. That generation suffered the wrath of the Messiah they rejected. The remaining verses are for all of us. Jesus is coming back, he will hold us to account, but there will be no specific warning signs.

It was Jesus who said: "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be....Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass til all these things be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away." (Matthew 24:21, 34-35)
I split the chapter after vs 34. Vs 35 contains no specific warning prophecy.

In his book, Southern Baptist Reverend John Bray states:

"Present-day students of eschatology seem woefully ignorant of the writings of past theologians on these subjects. There was a time (prior to the mid-1800s) when the most prominent interpretation of Matthew 24 was from the preterite standpoint, No- historic amil and the dating of Revelation was believed to be at an earlier date than is now believed."

Correct - the internal evidence indicates that Jerusalem & the temple were still standing - see Rev. 11. The late date is derived from a questionable quotation from Irenaeus who wrote in Greek but what he wrote about John & his visions is known only in Latin translation 15 years later.


Grasp what this book teaches, and you won't waste any more of your time on the pre-mil, pre-trib fiction put out by the so-called "prophecy experts." Matthew 24 Fulfilled examines the issues related to popular "end-times" hysteria and counters with a view consistent with all of Scripture.

[Covenanter]

No I have not read his book, but it sounds consistent with the fact the the once great SBC has gone away from what it was based on and that was the Bible (KJB) not at all and what happens when people start to use "new revelation" It sounds like the "Rev" wants to sell books, and you can't sell something today of you don't have a "controversial" twist to it, nor can people be lead astray if there are not some "intellectual" giving credence to false teachings. That must be why the Tim & Jerry "Left Behind" books are so successful

Th preterist idea/belief had not ever come to my attention it seems I write in invisible ink ( I ain't a Bible scholar) until this last week went I was approached about the pre-wrath (not to start discussion on this, i have found that this has been hashed and rehash in other threads and have come to impasse), buit to say I am a pre-tribulation believer and teacher.

Anyhow I am looking for Jesus Christ to return, and I believe it could happen at any time.

Post script, If he can sell his book to SBC'ers then he has a pretty big audience anyhow.

[no name joe]

Have not read it. However, from the overview, it seems to match up with my interpretation. My thoughts on Jesus' return are "Amen, come Lord Jesus!" He could return tomorrow, it could be many more genrations before his return. I suspect the latter.

I do think Tim Lahaye and like are doing a great disservice to the church by coming up with doomsday fictional prophecies that many in the church believe hook line and sinker.

Edited February 8, 2011 by kindofblue1977

[Bro Jim]

Covenanter,


I had not read your comments or anyone else's about the preterist doctrine until this morning when I searched it on this site, and had not even discussed it with anyone until last Sunday when someone approached me about it. So sorry I had just not seen anything until today, and for my part what I have read it did not change my pretrib belief.

As for the SBC being KJB, they were many, many, many years ago, my pastor Bro.Jamie Coleman (now in glory), was SBC before thy went south (sic, liberal, MV, etc).

They used to have solid beliefs, now they are as mushy as the rest of "Christianity".

[John81]

Did the SBC believe/preach pre-trib Rapture in the 1800s? I thought I read somewhere that the SBC, and most other churches in early America, held mostly to a preterist view.

[Invicta]

Did the SBC believe/preach pre-trib Rapture in the 1800s? I thought I read somewhere that the SBC, and most other churches in early America, held mostly to a preterist view.

Philip Mauro, writing in about 1923 said he once believed this new teaching. He said it gave him a sense of superiority over those who did not accept the new teaching. He also said that there were people alive then that could remember the times before that doctrine came in.

The first major denomination who absorbed the pre-trib Rapture doctrine was the Plymouth Brethren. (Although they would reject being called a denomination as they thing they are the only true believers.)

[JerryNumbers]

Philip Mauro, writing in about 1923 said he once believed this new teaching. He said it gave him a sense of superiority over those who did not accept the new teaching. He also said that there were people alive then that could remember the times before that doctrine came in.

The first major denomination who absorbed the pre-trib Rapture doctrine was the Plymouth Brethren. (Although they would reject being called a denomination as they thing they are the only true believers.)

That my friend is a pure strawman statement, used when one cannot disprove something. Bu ssying that they feel they do not have to prove what they're saying.

Many of the SBC's around here beileve in the per-trip rapture.

[John81]

SBC Professors

SBC seminaries employ professors who hold a wide variety of eschatological positions but agree on inaugurated eschatology and the 12 basic beliefs cited earlier as a standard of orthodoxy. The TEXAN polled the six seminaries regarding the positions of their faculty and discovered that historic premillennialism may have slightly more adherents than any other position. Included in the survey’s findings:

—Among Southwestern School of Theology faculty, 20 are historic premillennialists, 15 hold to premillennial and pretribulational views, three are amillennialists and two abstained.

—Southern Seminary faculty members hold to historic premillennialism most often, although a very small number hold to amillennialism or progressive dispensationalism.

—New Orleans Seminary faculty members tend to be historical premillennialists.

—Of the eight Midwestern Seminary faculty members who responded, all but one are premillennialists, two of them specifying historic premillennialism and another amillennialism.

—At Southeastern Seminary, premillennial, pretribulational faculty edged out historic premillennialists 12-6, while one professor is still undecided on his millennium commitment.

—A survey of Golden Gate faculty was incomplete. But President Jeff Iorg indicated that he holds to a premillennial, pretribulational view while two faculty members identified themselves as historic premillennialists.

http://www.texanonline.net/default.asp?action=article&aid=6188&issue=4/20/2009

[Covenanter]

No I have not read his book, but it sounds consistent with the fact the the once great SBC has gone away from what it was based on and that was the Bible (KJB) and what happens when people start to use "new revelation"

The modern translation issue is not relevant to this discussion. The pioneers of disp made their own 'Bibles.'

Dispensationalism was developed by Darby, who made his own translation, & popularised by Scofield, whose notes are based on Westcott & Hort, e.g.

5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
v. 7
It is generally agreed that v.7 has no real authority, and has been inserted. 1 John 5:7.

1Jo 5:7 For they that bear witness are three:
8 the Spirit, and the water, and the blood; and the three agree in one.

Edited February 9, 2011 by Covenanter

[Covenanter]

Covenanter,


I had not read your comments or anyone else's about the preterist doctrine until this morning when I searched it on this site, and had not even discussed it with anyone until last Sunday when someone approached me about it. So sorry I had just not seen anything until today, and for my part what I have read it did not change my pretrib belief.

As for the SBC being KJB, they were many, many, many years ago, my pastor Bro.Jamie Coleman (now in glory), was SBC before thy went south (sic, liberal, MV, etc).

They used to have solid beliefs, now they are as mushy as the rest of "Christianity".

I hope that a cursory glance at an alternative interpretation of Scripture prophecy would not change one's belief, However:

What I would hope is that the awareness of a historic interpretation would rouse interest & a Berean attitude. I'll begin with one question:

What would the Thessalonians, in around AD 50, understand by the temple of God?

2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

[Bro Jim]

I would suppose that "the temple of God" meant "the temple of God". As I read it it is my simply understanding that he (Paul) was refuting what those that were contradicting his preaching/teaching or trying to pull people away by preaching or teaching different that what he had already taught.

That being said I understand the rest of what he wrote to simply verify what he had taught them while he was there and that was to tell them what was going to happen in the future. Which I believe is part of that which Satan will do after the Pre-tribulation rapture of the church/all saved dead and alive.

What I read in the threads in OB did not seem to be just cursory discussions, those on both sides of the issue seem to put forth their views quite well, and I still stand where I stand, and will preach what I preach.

God Bless Brother, for there will be a day we will all know the truth as God would have us to know it, By and By.

[Covenanter]

I would suppose that "the temple of God" meant "the temple of God". As I read it it is my simply understanding that he (Paul) was refuting what those that were contradicting his preaching/teaching or trying to pull people away by preaching or teaching different that what he had already taught.

The obvious, literal, understanding is the temple of God then standing in Jerusalem. Paul continued to recognise that temple, & worshipped there on his final visit to Jerusalem, where he was arrested.

Disps interpret it as a yet future Jerusalem temple, but there is nothing in the passage to support that view. Paul is teaching that Jesus Olivet prophecy must be fulfilled before the day of Christ. When you read Luke 21, there cannot be the slightest doubt that AD 70 was the fulfilment.

Rev. 11 likewise has AD 70 in view. The two witnesses - Moses & Ellijah - are the Law & Prophets, God's word.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.



That being said I understand the rest of what he wrote to simply verify what he had taught them while he was there and that was to tell them what was going to happen in the future. Which I believe is part of that which Satan will do after the Pre-tribulation rapture of the church/all saved dead and alive.

Where do you see "the Pre-tribulation rapture" in the passage? The Thessalonians did not have the dubious benefit of Darby & Scofield to explain what Paul meant. They had Paul, & his revelation from Jesus himself. James & the Jerusalem church continued their witness until he was killed & the church removed 3½ years before the destruction. The man of sin is not specifically named in Scripture, though it is reasonable to see him as the high priest Ananias or his successor.

Act 23:2 And the high priest Ananias commanded them that stood by him to smite him on the mouth.
3 Then said Paul unto him, God shall smite thee, [thou] whited wall: for sittest thou to judge me after the law, and commandest me to be smitten contrary to the law?


What I read in the threads in OB did not seem to be just cursory discussions, those on both sides of the issue seem to put forth their views quite well, and I still stand where I stand, and will preach what I preach.

The threads are not cursory, but I thought that as the concept of Preterism was new to you, you could not have made more than a cursory study in the few days available.


God Bless Brother, for there will be a day we will all know the truth as God would have us to know it, By and By.
Amen &

[irishman]

what is the pre-terrorist view anyway?