The Invisible Church?

[Brother Rick]

I think they use the passage in Acts where all the Italians speak in tongues (imagine all the hand gestures) after they got saved. But then some of them jump to Acts 2:38 and say you have to speak in tongues after you're baptized to have the Holy Ghost, even those the people that got baptized in Acts 2 didn't speak in tongues. What makes it more confusing is that the Italians who spoke in tongues did it before they were baptized.

Edited February 16, 2011 by Rick Schworer

[Bro Jim]

But where in the KJB is there proof for babbling?

[Brother Rick]

I Cor. 14:2, "For he that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries."

That's their proof, I'm not saying I agree with them!

[John81]

Yes Rick, as to both posts, that's what I've heard from the Charismatics and those are their "proof texts". They claim one must be baptized into the faith and also baptized in the Holy Ghost, which will produce speaking in tongues.

While they are quick to point to point to 1 Cor. 14:2 to validate their babblings, they are just as quick to ignore the command which state any speaking in tongues done in an unknown language is ONLY to be done in public if there is an interpreter. Of course this was referring to speaking in a known human language other than what those present could understand; not babblings.

[irishman]

Rick, very neat the way you turned the thread around, with John 81's help!

Rick, when you answer the questions I have posted, I will gladly answer yours. You have totally ignored all posts that were contrary to your beliefs, and demand an answer for those that you feel support it. very subtle.

As for the inferences that we do not believe in the literal body of Christ, that is hogwash, and mud-slinging; Of course I believe that--to deny it would be to deny scripture. The same with being spiritually baptized into Christ, that has absolutely nothing to do with the the so called Invisible church, it is an act of grace.

Why does this keep coming up? Because it;s needed, Baptists need to get back to being Baptists. We have distorted the very essence of what it means to be a "Baptist" by allowing foolish doctrines infiltrate our belies--doctrines such as this. Your innuendo's are offensive, and you ought to apologize to us, and to the Lord for such hogwash. As Jerry said, if you would read the posts thus far, your questions would reveal the redundancy of a universal church with no name; no shepherd; no authority to baptize; no authority at all. Please don't say that those statements are offensive; they are only offensive to those who embrace them. I have not called anyone names, nor said that they did not read their Bibles, or that they were not a part of the local church; or even that they are not saved, but, if the shoe fits\\s....

[JerryNumbers]

That is the strategy, when some disagree, to themselves it proves to them they are right, and your wrong, plus they can ignore the evidence.


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Ro 12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
1Co 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Of course, one body in Christ, and yes, the RCC believes in what they call the one true invisible universal church while there is nothing in the Bible that resembles such a thing.

[Brother Rick]

Rick, very neat the way you turned the thread around, with John 81's help!

Yes, that John and I, we're a really sneaky couple of guys. You better watch out.

Rick, when you answer the questions I have posted, I will gladly answer yours.

Sure thing, brother. Sorry if I offended you or anyone, that was not my intention. If anything, my intention was to encourage an actual discussion on this. I'll do my best to answer your questions, if I've missed any let me know what they are.

You said

...let me ask a few question to the proponents of the invisible church theory:

Does this invisible church do visible works?

Yes. Except for the dead ones, like my father, they're in the body of Christ just as much as you and I are. They're in Heaven though. I suppose if you want to count praising the Lord as a work, then yes, everyone within the body of Christ does works for the Lord. They are no different than any other Christian though, and I'm sure that many of them just live for themselves.


Do they win invisible souls?

Yes and no. You can't see a soul, so in a way, yes. But I don't think that's what you meant.


Do they give invisible tithes?

You could make the joke that the ones who do not tithe do. There is no Scripture to support the idea that a universal tithe goes to some universal church or organization. One of the differences between the universal church and the local church is that the universal church is made up of all Christians, all over the world. There's no way they could all go to one church. They are part of the body of Christ though, having been spiritually baptized into the body of Christ according to what the Bible says. This puts them in one body, even though they may attend several different churches all over the world, or, as another brother pointed out, they may not be able to attend a visible church at all for health or location reasons. They are still part of the body of Christ, which Jesus Christ called His church. The body of the Christ and the church are the same thing according to the Bible, but there is also such a thing as a local church which is found throughout the Scriptures as well.


Or send out invisible missionaries?

Not that I know of. Maybe the Charismatics claim this as a gift of the spirit though.


This invisible church, a world-wide partnership, is it a baptizing church?

Let me correct you on something here. The universal church is not a world-wide partnership of any kind. It is a spiritual organism created by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit baptizes people, spiritually, into this organism. Many different believers believe different things about baptism and do many different things.


Do they do what the Bible commands and at least attempt to glorify and magnify the Father?

I don't know what every Christian on the face of the Earth does, so this is a hard question to answer.


Some seem to think that they can be saved and yet be anything they wish to be, or do anything that they want if they can squeeze it in to the gospel somewhere. Is this the attitude a truly born-again believer?

The requirement to be a truly born-again believer is to have received Jesus Christ as one's Savior.


Many of them are merely social clubs, and their work for the Lord is “invisible” too, or non-existent! Yet you claim that they are a bona fide New testament church?

I never said that. I said every born-again Christian is a member of the body of Christ, which is the universal church, having been placed there by the Holy Spirit. The term "a New Testement church," having the artle "a," is a definite reference to "a church" (local) - not "the church," (universal).

Now, before you post a plethora of follow-ups, it would only be fair for you to answer each question that I asked you. I would also appreciate it if Jerry would do the same instead of posting one-liner pot shots. Edited February 17, 2011 by Rick Schworer

[John81]

Rick, very neat the way you turned the thread around, with John 81's help!

While I did indeed go off-topic in this thread, there was no plan to turn the thread around. As you know, most threads end up partially or eventually totally off the original topic. I was not "helping" anyone turn anything. I'll step out of the way so as not to risk turning the thread any more. Please, carry on as you wish.

[Brother Rick]

Just admit it John: you're a sneaky guy. :icon_mrgreen:

[John81]

Just admit it John: you're a sneaky guy.

Yes, it's a shame, but I figured I might get that big payoff of a bag of real Idaho potatoes if I conspired with you to turn the thread into a discussion about speaking in tongues. For shame! :coolsmiley:

[anime4christ]

Hyperbole and more nonsensical babbling. The biblical doctrine of the universal church teaches nothing of the kind.

By the way, it is not a Catholic doctrine, it's a Bible doctrine. The Catholics believe there is "one true church," and it's THEM and no one else. Sound familiar? Who's Catholic now???

Do you NOT believe in the body of Christ? Still waiting for one of you to quit rambling on like a delusional Charismatic and start answering some simple questions (post #61). That or you can just quit bringing this up all the time and looking down your noses at people who DO believe in the simple biblical truth a universal church/spiritual body of Christ consisting of all saved persons, regardless of denomination.

Dude, I was about to say this myself, but you said it for me already. I find absolutely nothing wrong in what you said. You were just trying to shake people awake to what you are and are not saying. I don't get why somebody said you needed to apologize.

[irishman]

Col. 1:18, “And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.”

Col. 1:24, “Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:”

Eph. 3:6, “That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:”

Eph. 2:16-18, “And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: [17] And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. [18] For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.”

I Cor. 12:12-13, “For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. [13] For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.”

Rom. 6:3, “Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?”

Gal. 3:26-27, “For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.”



Jerry and Irishman,

In light of these verses, please kindly answer the following questions:

1. What is the spiritual body of Christ?

2. How does one get in the spiritual body of Christ?

3. Is it possible to be in the spiritual body of Christ but not in a Baptist church?

4. Is it possible to get out of the spiritual body of Christ?

5. What does it mean to be baptized into Christ?

Thank you Rick, now I will attempt to answer yours:

1. The Church
2. By an act of grace from God.
3. No.
4. No
5. We are, by an act of grace, baptized (submerged) in Him.

I agree with these, but it has no bearing on the subject.
I do not deny a spiritual body; merely that the church is made up of local churches from all over the world, each being a functioning organism of its own, independent from all associations and organizations. It is autonomous in government; evangelical in outreach; and a living and lively Body, functioning toward a common goal, i.e. glorifying the Lord.

BTW, I was rebuked by the moderator one time for less flagrant, outright sarcasm than the last two posts (#84 and 85) have flung my way. Apologies accepted. Edited February 18, 2011 by irishman

[John81]

Thank you Rick, now I will attempt to answer yours:

1. The Church
2. By an act of grace from God.
3. No.
4. No
5. We are, by an act of grace, baptized (submerged) in Him.

I agree with these, but it has no bearing on the subject.
I do not deny a spiritual body; merely that the church is made up of local churches from all over the world, each being a functioning organism of its own, independent from all associations and organizations. It is autonomous in government; evangelical in outreach; and a living and lively Body, functioning toward a common goal, i.e. glorifying the Lord.

BTW, I was rebuked by the moderator one time for less flagrant, outright sarcasm than the last two posts (#84 and 85) have flung my way. Apologies accepted.

Why do you believe one can't be born again, which makes one a part of the spiritual body of Christ, if they are not in a Baptist church?
Where is that in Scripture? What about all those who were in Christ before there was a Baptist church? What about all those who live where there is no Baptist church or those who live where the only Baptist church or churches are corrput and worldly?

[trc123]

Why do you believe one can't be born again, which makes one a part of the spiritual body of Christ, if they are not in a Baptist church?
Where is that in Scripture? What about all those who were in Christ before there was a Baptist church? What about all those who live where there is no Baptist church or those who live where the only Baptist church or churches are corrput and worldly?

Seems a bit Baptist Brider in thinking...........Are you a Baptist Brider Irishman?

[Brother Rick]

Thank you Rick, now I will attempt to answer yours:

1. The Church
2. By an act of grace from God.
3. No.
4. No
5. We are, by an act of grace, baptized (submerged) in Him.

I agree with these, but it has no bearing on the subject.
I do not deny a spiritual body; merely that the church is made up of local churches from all over the world, each being a functioning organism of its own, independent from all associations and organizations. It is autonomous in government; evangelical in outreach; and a living and lively Body, functioning toward a common goal, i.e. glorifying the Lord.

BTW, I was rebuked by the moderator one time for less flagrant, outright sarcasm than the last two posts (#84 and 85) have flung my way. Apologies accepted.

Thanks for answering. On one hand you say that "the church is made up of local churches from all over the world," and yet on the other hand you say the church is made up of the spiritual body of Christ consisting of all saved Christians.

Which is it? It can't be both, because there are plenty of saved Christians that aren't in a local church.