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    • By Jim_Alaska in Jim_Alaska's Sermons & Devotionals
         33
      Closed Communion
      James Foley
       
      I Corinthians 11:17-34: "Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's Supper. For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not. For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord's death till he come. Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another. And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come."

      INTRODUCTION

      Historic Baptists, true Baptists, have believed in and still believe in closed communion. Baptists impose upon themselves the same restrictions that they impose on others concerning the Lord’s Supper. Baptists have always insisted that it is the Lord’s Table, not theirs; and He alone has the right to say who shall sit at His table. No amount of so called brotherly love, or ecumenical spirit, should cause us to invite to His table those who have not complied with the requirements laid down plainly in His inspired Word. With respect to Bible doctrines we must always use the scripture as our guide and practice. For Baptists, two of the most important doctrines are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper. These are the only two doctrines we recognize as Church Ordinances. The Bible is very clear in teaching how these doctrines are to be practiced and by whom.

      We only have two ordinances that we must never compromise or we risk our very existence, they are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper.

      The moment we deviate from the precise method God has prescribed we have started down the slippery slope of error. True Baptists have held fast to the original doctrine of The Lord’s Supper from the time of Christ and the Apostles.

      Unfortunately, in this day of what the Bible describes as the age of luke warmness, Baptists are becoming careless in regard to strictly following the pattern laid out for us in Scripture. Many of our Bible colleges are graduating otherwise sincere, Godly and dedicated pastors and teachers who have not been taught the very strict, biblical requirements that surround the Lord’s Supper. Any Bible college that neglects to teach its students the differences surrounding Closed Communion, Close Communion and Open Communion is not simply short changing its students; it is also not equipping their students to carry on sound Bible traditions. The result is men of God and churches that fall into error. And as we will see, this is serious error.

      Should we as Baptists ignore the restrictions made by our Lord and Master? NO! When we hold to the restrictions placed upon the Lord’s Supper by our Master, we are defending the "faith which was once delivered to the saints" Jude 3.

      The Lord’s Supper is rigidly restricted and I will show this in the following facts:

      IT IS RESTRICTED AS TO PLACE

      A. I Corinthians 11:18 says, "When ye come together in the church." This does not mean the church building; they had none. In other words, when the church assembles. The supper is to be observed by the church, in church capacity. Again this does not mean the church house. Ekklesia, the Greek word for church, means assembly. "When ye come together in the church," is when the church assembles.

      B. When we say church we mean an assembly of properly baptized believers. Acts 2:41-42: "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers."

      The church is made up of saved people who are baptized by immersion. In the Bible, belief precedes baptism. That’s the Bible way.

      Acts 8:12-13, "But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done."

      When we say properly baptized, we mean immersed. No unbeliever should take the Lord’s supper, and no non-immersed believer should take the supper. Those who are sprinkled are not baptized and cannot receive the supper. The Greek word for baptize is baptizo, and it always means to immerse.

      "In every case where communion is referred to, or where it may possibly have been administered, the believers had been baptized Acts 2:42; 8:12; 8:38; 10:47; 6:14-15; 18:8; 20:7. Baptism comes before communion, just as repentance and faith precede baptism".

      C. The Lord’s Supper is for baptized believers in church capacity: "When ye come together in the church," again not a building, but the assembly of the properly baptized believers.

      D. The fact that the Lord’s Supper is a church ordinance, to be observed in church capacity, is pointed out by the fact that it is for those who have been immersed and added to the fellowship of the church.

      E. The Lord’s Supper is never spoken of in connection with individuals. When it is referred to, it is only referred to in reference to baptized believers in local church capacity I Cor. 11:20-26).

      I want to quote Dr. W.W. Hamilton,

      "The individual administration of the ordinance has no Bible warrant and is a relic of Romanism. The Lord’s Supper is a church ordinance, and anything which goes beyond or comes short of this fails for want of scriptural example or command".

      “The practice of taking a little communion kit to hospitals, nursing homes, etc. is unscriptural and does not follow the scriptural example.”

      IT IS RESTRICTED TO A UNITED CHURCH

      A. The Bible in I Cor. 11:18 is very strong in condemning divisions around the Lord’s table. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
      19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
      20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.

      There were no less than four divisions in the Corinthian church.
      I Cor. 1:12: "Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ."

      Because of these divisions, it was impossible for them to scripturally eat the Lord’s Supper. Division in the local church is reason to hold off observing the Lord’s Supper. But there are also other reasons to forego taking the Lord’s Supper. If there is gross sin in the membership we do not take it. Here is scriptural evidence for this: 1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us:
      8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
      10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

      B. At this point, I want to ask these questions: Are there not doctrinal divisions among the many denominations? Is it not our doctrinal differences that cause us to be separate religious bodies?

      IT IS RESTRICTED BY DOCTRINE

      A. Those in the early church at Jerusalem who partook "continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine" Acts 2:42. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

      B. Those that do not hold to apostolic truth are not to partake. This means there is to be discipline in the local body. How can you discipline those who do not belong to the local body? You can’t. The clear command of scripture is to withdraw fellowship from those who are not doctrinally sound.

      II Thes 3:6: "Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us."
      Rom. 16:17: "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them."
      To commune together means to have the same doctrine.
      II Thes. 2:15: "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."
      II John 10-11: "If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds."

      C. Some Baptists in our day have watered down this doctrine by practicing what they call “Close Communion.” By this they mean that they believe that members of another Baptist church may take communion with us because they are of the same beliefs. Once again, this is unscriptural.

      The welcome to the Lord's Table should not be extended beyond the discipline of the local church. When we take the Lord’s Supper there is supposed to be no gross sin among us and no divisions among us. We have no idea of the spiritual condition of another church’s members. If there is sin or division in the case of this other church’s members, we have no way of knowing it. We cannot discipline them because they are not members of our church. This is why we practice “Closed” communion, meaning it is restricted solely to our church membership. 
      So then, in closing I would like to reiterate the three different ideas concerning the Lord’s Supper and who is to take it. 
      Closed Communion = Only members of a single local church. 
      Close Communion = Members of like faith and order may partake. 
      Open Communion = If you claim to be a Christian, or simply attending the service, you may partake. 
      It is no small thing to attempt to change that which was implemented by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 
      Mt. 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. 
      Many of our Baptist churches have a real need to consider the gravity of the act of observing The Lord’s Supper. It is not a light thing that is to be taken casually or without regard to the spiritual condition of ourselves or our church.
      1Co. 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

       28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

       29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

       30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

Is it possible to renounce salvation?


no name joe
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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Eternal Security



If a person asks Jesus to come into their heart and asks God to forgive their sins and tells others

that they have accepted Jesus as Lord because He died for their sins and rose from the grave,

that person is saved from going to hell when they die. But what happens if that person sins later

in life?


Rom 4:6-8

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. KJV

Once you are saved God imputes Jesus righteousness to you forever and will never impute or charge sin to you again.



Rom 7:19-20

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. KJV



Paul tells us that it is not you, the spirit, that sins but you the old nature and flesh, that is charged

with the sin.



1 Cor 15:50-54

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. KJV



1 Cor 3:10-15

10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. KJV

Notice in verse 15, that even if you lose all your rewards you yourself will go to heaven and not hell.

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Nope, once saved, always saved. I agree with John81, a lot of people pretend they got saved and are really good at it, but it does not mean they are saved, so they can't lose it to begin with.

I know someone who was even baptized, but just because they say they are and go through the acts of being a Christian that does not mean they are actually saved. That is why Jesus said many will come to me, saying haven't I done this and this and He will respond, "Depart, I know you not!" He knows who are His from the second they begin to pray.

For someone to go from being saved to an atheist does not say much for their salvation to begin with, but only God knows if he was sincere in accepting him before he walked away from Him. If he was sincere when he got saved he will be in heaven.

Deep down they are angry, frustrated, and bitter, they blame God for their lives being a mess or whatever it is, but I tell you what when it all comes down to it, they will be thanking God for not casting them out like they cast Him out.

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Eric E Stahl "Notice in verse 1 Cor 3:15, that even if you lose all your rewards you yourself will go to heaven and not hell."



Nope, once saved, always saved. I agree with John81, a lot of people pretend they got saved and are really good at it, but it does not mean they are saved, so they can't lose it to begin with.

I know someone who was even baptized, but just because they say they are and go through the acts of being a Christian that does not mean they are actually saved. That is why Jesus said many will come to me, saying haven't I done this and this and He will respond, "Depart, I know you not!" He knows who are His from the second they begin to pray..

For someone to go from being saved to an atheist does not say much for their salvation to begin with, but only God knows if he was sincere in accepting him before he walked away from Him. If he was sincere when he got saved he will be in heaven.


Deep down they are angry, frustrated, and bitter, they blame God for their lives being a mess or whatever it is, but I tell you what when it all comes down to it, they will be thanking God for not casting them out like they cast Him out.



I agree that you can't lose your salvation. Your post after mine seemed to indicate you thought I thought you could be lost. Edited by Eric Stahl
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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Howdy all!

I find it noteworthy that in some denominations, they dismiss 'eternal life' and 'everlasting life' and teach a Christian can not get to heaven if they sin after they are saved, without scripture in the church letters that back up such a claim. Nothing personal towards anyone, but many Pentecostal and Catholic denominations teach this.

Other Christians are taught you can get saved, but then if the person walks poorly, they say the person wasn't really saved, though there is no scripture in the church epistles to support this viewpoint.

Still others say Simon wasn't really saved, though scripture clearly says he believed.

It is a shame people will not to believe the Word, rather than preconceived notions.

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This is a good time to point out the majority of denominations never teach anyone how to be saved, & if all members believe as their denominations teaches, everyone in that denominations is lost. I have heard several quote the percentages of churches that teach one is saved by grace though faith, not of self, not of works, its a gift, sets at about 20 %. I believe that is pretty close to about right, with what Jesus stated in Matthew7:13,14.

So those people, denominations, that teaches you can be lost after you have been saved probably have never been saved, & if you've never been saved, you cannot lose your salvation. Yet we know that if anyone ever lost their salvation, that thye could never be saved again because of thses verses.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

So we can safely say they're false teachers just by claiming a person can lose thier salvation, & gain it back again.

Denounce salvation? No.


Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

2Ti 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

So no, once a person has eternal life, everlasting life, they cannot get rid of it, if they could them it could not be said one has eternal life,everlasting life, & we could not believe any of the Bible for that would prove the verses I gave from John 3 are lies, & we who belong to God knows well that the Holy Bible has no lies within its pages.

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There are many who teach that one must hold onto their salvation by being good, doing certain good works, being loyal to the church, etc. This is a totally false teaching and most such churches also teach a false gospel, not an actual surrender to Christ where one is born again, but rather a head "faith" which says they "accept Christ" but now must do all they can through their own efforts to remain a Christian, and to hope they don't commit some "bad sin" before they die and lose salvation and end up in hell.

There is so much of this sort of false teaching out there. I encountered such as a child in a Methodist church. I believed in God but that was about as far as the Methodist teaching led me in that direction. The rest of the Methodist teaching I received basically amounted to my good better outweigh my bad or God would punish me, the devil would come for me, I could end up in hell because I had not been "good enough".

There is a lady in our church, I do believe she is born again, yet she spent so many years in a church which taught against eternal security that she still has a hard time understanding the biblical truth of this and still catches herself thinking she has to worry about the state of her soul at all times.

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There are also many published books which sell millions of copies that do not teach how to be saved. That Rick Warren book, whatever the name of the book is, is one. A lot of feel good about yourself, but not a lick that I could find about confessing Jesus as Lord, believing God raised him from the dead.

Eternal life means just that - eternal. If you could renounce it, lose it, or have it taken from you, it wouldn't be eternal.

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There are also many published books which sell millions of copies that do not teach how to be saved. That Rick Warren book, whatever the name of the book is, is one. A lot of feel good about yourself, but not a lick that I could find about confessing Jesus as Lord, believing God raised him from the dead.

Eternal life means just that - eternal. If you could renounce it, lose it, or have it taken from you, it wouldn't be eternal.


Mr. Warren can prove everything he preaches & teaches, but it takes at least 13 or more versions of a Bible for him to prove it, he can't prove his teaching & preaching by only using the old KJ Bible.

.
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I do not believe one who is indwelt with the Holy Spirit will renounce his or her faith or belief in Jesus Christ. Scripture teaches us that the Holy Spirit guides us into all truth, so I don't see how a believer can fall into apostasy to the point of denying Christ.

If one made a profession at some stage in life and years later walked away from the Christian faith and now lives the life of an atheist, I do not believe that profession resulted in possession. Their hearts were not truly changed though they had made a profession.

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I understand what you are saying. However, that still does not explain that passage I quoted in Hebrews. If once cannot renounce salvation, what does this passage mean? It leaves me a bit confused if we say one cannot renounce salvation.

Also, in John 10:29, it says no man can pluck you from the Father's hand. That implies an external force applied to a person, such as Satan. I am not sure this applies to one's self saying you cannot renounce salvation. If that were included, it would have said, "No man can walk out of the Father's hands." I am not disagreeing with you, but I do not see how John 10:29 can be extended to apply to one's own decision.

As far as renouncing salvation implying that salvation is works ba. sed, I do not believe it is. No works can earn salvation. That is crystal clear. However, a man must respond to to the Father's call to accept the gift. Each person is free to chose to reject it. THe rich young ruler went away sad because he could not do what was asked of him upon receiving the call of Christ. What was required of him? Well, selling his possessions, giving to the poor and following the call of Christ. Those actions would not have saved him, but responding affirmativly to the call of Christ would have. THe grace God extends through Christ is where salvation is found, but it does take belief and a decision to follow Christ.

So, after making a decision, is it not possible for one to make the decision to throw out that gift of grace? Again, I am not arguing one way or another, just trying to reconcile the Scriptures on this. I still do not know what the Hebrews passage means if once cannot revoke his decision. However, when I read in the context of one being able to revoke his decision, then it makes perfect sense.

This is a difficult issue for me to reconcile in my mind as I read the scriptures on the issue.
Ephesians 1:13,14 is clear. Once one trusts Christ, that one is sealed with the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption of the purchased possession. How long is that person sealed? Until the day of Redemption.

It doesn't say one is sealed until one decides to reject Christ. It doesn't say one is sealed until one messes up. No, it says until the day of redemption. If that seal is broken before the day of redemption, the Ephesians 1:13,14 is a lie.

And if those two verses are a lie, then chances are there are more lies in the Word of God.

Those who are saved know that Ephesians 1:13,14 is not a lie, but a promise. And He who promised is Faithful and True.
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I do not believe one who is indwelt with the Holy Spirit will renounce his or her faith or belief in Jesus Christ. Scripture teaches us that the Holy Spirit guides us into all truth, so I don't see how a believer can fall into apostasy to the point of denying Christ.

If one made a profession at some stage in life and years later walked away from the Christian faith and now lives the life of an atheist, I do not believe that profession resulted in possession. Their hearts were not truly changed though they had made a profession.


I know of a father & mother, good church workers in a Baptist Church at the time, their son age 21 was killed in a very bad car wreck. The wife & I came along right after the wreck took place. After this both of them denounced their faith in Christ, just about made a shrine out of their sons grave, asked those over the cemetery, which is out in a rural area, if they could have a night light installed, they OK'ed, & did this that he would never be in the dark.

I was told by a pastor that at that time, it was either 69 or 70, that they knew their son was not saved, & they did not want to be in heaven if he was going to be in hell, that they wanted to spend eternity with their son.

I understand in their latter years they got back in church, it may have been due to their grand daughter by their other son that started attending church services right after her son was born.

I would never say that a saved person would never denounce their faith. For we do have emotions, & when our heart gets badly broken we may do some strange things
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I find it amazing how many of you are quick to state that a believer living in sin was never saved in the first place. The bible is very clear on salvation - believe on the finished work of Christ at the cross and you will be saved through His faith not yours. What you do with your life after that is your responsibility, NOT GOD'S. This "living in sin" however does not cause one to lose their salvation. Like the Pharisees you make your interpretation more important than God's simple truth. It's too simple, to easy for you to accept that God grace is greater than your sin. You will easily believe that His grace is enough for your pre-salvation sin, but not for any continual sin after salvation - this stinks of works not grace - of Calvinism.
You make God small and petty and say things like "he must not have made a proper profession"; "he didn't believe enough"; "he was never TRULY saved" and " he was not filled with the spirit". You believe! Your salvation is not dependent on YOU but on GOD, not your sins past, present, continual or future, BUT ON GOD"S GRACE!!!!!!!~!!!!!!!! So stop using your own OPINION to explain a man/woman's struggle with sin - pray for them instead of condemning them with your arrogant statements as if you have the power of God to know a man's heart.
If a person believes they are saved - they are not chosen to believe beforehand and can not take salvation doctrine from the gospels and always remember Acts

Act 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
Act 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
Act 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
Act 15:12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.

Edited by 2Tim215
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One cannot lose one's Salvation.

But the Word of God states

Hebrews 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

If one is able to make a profession of faith and then fall into sin without feeling the chastening hand of the Lord, that person was not saved. Scripture calls that one a bastard and not a son.

Too many want to come to Christ on their own terms. "Lord, I'll believe in you for Salvation, but this is my life and I will live it any way I well please" is the attitude.

Well, with that type of attitude, God isn't going to hear them. They aren't submitting to Him. Scripture states if we want eternal life, we must deny self, take up our cross and follow Him. Living a sinful life is not denying self, it is satisfying self. And if anyone thinks they can live a life of sin and be saved at the same time, they are only deceiving themselves.

And if they think they are saved while living in sin and they are not feeling the chastening hand of the Lord, they are as lost as the atheist down the street.

Edited by Standing Firm In Christ
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I find it amazing how many of you are quick to state that a believer living in sin was never saved in the first place. The bible is very clear on salvation - believe on the finished work of Christ at the cross and you will be saved through His faith not yours. What you do with your life after that is your responsibility, NOT GOD'S. This "living in sin" however does not cause one to lose their salvation. Like the Pharisees you make your interpretation more important than God's simple truth. It's too simple, to easy for you to accept that God grace is greater than your sin. You will easily believe that His grace is enough for your pre-salvation sin, but not for any continual sin after salvation - this stinks of works not grace - of Calvinism.
You make God small and petty and say things like "he must not have made a proper profession"; "he didn't believe enough"; "he was never TRULY saved" and " he was not filled with the spirit". You believe! Your salvation is not dependent on YOU but on GOD, not your sins past, present, continual or future, BUT ON GOD"S GRACE!!!!!!!~!!!!!!!! So stop using your own OPINION to explain a man/woman's struggle with sin - pray for them instead of condemning them with your arrogant statements as if you have the power of God to know a man's heart.
If a person believes they are saved - they are not chosen to believe beforehand and can not take salvation doctrine from the gospels and always remember Acts

Act 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
Act 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
Act 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
Act 15:12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.


How about calming down, 2Tim? Re-read the posts carefully and you'll see that there really isn't that much talk about someone who is in sin not really being saved. The plain fact of the matter is that there are people who are NOT saved, even though they profess to be, for whatever reason they might have. I re-read this thread, after you posted, just to see what was being said. And I have to say that none of the posters deserve being called arrogant - even those that state that there is a possibility of someone who rejects Christ was not truly saved. Because that is a very real possibility.

Remember that the Bible says that the devils believe and TREMBLE. Too often, we make salvation a light thing when presenting it (it is simple, but not light!), and a prayer is prayed, but the heart is not involved. And that person goes on to try and live what is perceived as the Christian life without the Holy Spirit power. All too often, when that happens, discouragement sets in and the person turns away - were they ever truly saved? No. They had the trappings, but not the power. That is a truth that cannot be denied by anyone that has been a Christian for very long.

That is not to say that a person who is truly saved can lose their salvation. Scripture is clear that they cannot. They can backslide, though, and will be miserable when they do...and it will seem to others that mayhap they never were saved. They may even think so, and "get saved" again later.

No-one condemned anyone in this thread...please don't accuse where there isn't accusatory reasons. Thanks.
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How about calming down, 2Tim? Re-read the posts carefully and you'll see that there really isn't that much talk about someone who is in sin not really being saved. The plain fact of the matter is that there are people who are NOT saved, even though they profess to be, for whatever reason they might have. I re-read this thread, after you posted, just to see what was being said. And I have to say that none of the posters deserve being called arrogant - even those that state that there is a possibility of someone who rejects Christ was not truly saved. Because that is a very real possibility.

Remember that the Bible says that the devils believe and TREMBLE. Too often, we make salvation a light thing when presenting it (it is simple, but not light!), and a prayer is prayed, but the heart is not involved. And that person goes on to try and live what is perceived as the Christian life without the Holy Spirit power. All too often, when that happens, discouragement sets in and the person turns away - were they ever truly saved? No. They had the trappings, but not the power. That is a truth that cannot be denied by anyone that has been a Christian for very long.

That is not to say that a person who is truly saved can lose their salvation. Scripture is clear that they cannot. They can backslide, though, and will be miserable when they do...and it will seem to others that mayhap they never were saved. They may even think so, and "get saved" again later.

No-one condemned anyone in this thread...please don't accuse where there isn't accusatory reasons. Thanks.


I am not condemning anyone. I did not make any statements at specific persons but rather at the general underling doctrine believed by some. And I said "arrogant statements" - This does not imply arrogance onto the testator but onto the STATEMENT. - so if you want quotes here they are.


I know someone who was even baptized, but just because they say they are and go through the acts of being a Christian that does not mean they are actually saved. That is why Jesus said many will come to me, saying haven't I done this and this and He will respond, "Depart, I know you not!" He knows who are His from the second they begin to pray. - Jesus was not speaking to NT believers here

For someone to go from being saved to an atheist does not say much for their salvation to begin with, but only God knows if he was sincere in accepting him before he walked away from Him. If he was sincere when he got saved he will be in heaven.

Deep down they are angry, frustrated, and bitter, they blame God for their lives being a mess or whatever it is, but I tell you what when it all comes down to it, they will be thanking God for not casting them out like they cast Him out.



I do not believe one who is indwelt with the Holy Spirit will renounce his or her faith or belief in Jesus Christ. Scripture teaches us that the Holy Spirit guides us into all truth, so I don't see how a believer can fall into apostasy to the point of denying Christ.

If one made a profession at some stage in life and years later walked away from the Christian faith and now lives the life of an atheist, I do not believe that profession resulted in possession. Their hearts were not truly changed though they had made a profession.



Once one is biblically saved the Holy Ghost seals them and indwells them and they are sons/daughters of God forever after.

Scripture has examples of those who appeared to be saved, acted saved and may have even thought they were saved, but their turning away was due to the fact they were never saved to begin with. None lost their salvation because they had never been saved to begin with.


Show me those scriptures that state that they made a "profession" of faith.


If you can lose your salvation...that means you are keeping it by works. (Because if your works are "bad", i.e. rejecting Christ, then your WORKS kept or lost your salvation).

So to believe you can renounce salvation is to believe in works salvation. So the question is, do you believe in grace or works salvation? God says plainly in Ephesians, its NOT of works...if it was works, we could boast. God saved us by grace through faith, NOT of ourselves. If we can choose to keep or reject our salvation, then it is not God, but us doing it.

It is likely that anyone who can fully reject Christ was never saved to begin with. Those saved have the Holy Spirit inside to bear witness with their spirit and those who would then be an atheist surely do not have the Holy Spirit inside. First John has a lot to say about those who would claim to be saved but then not have the spirit of Christ for real.


Many a saved believer has lost a loved one, been hurt, got cancer, etc etc and in anger and hurt "FULLY" rejected Christ in their hearts - this does not mean we have the right to judge them unsaved because we see the fruits from only a glimpse of there lives and not the whole story.

I feel very strongly about this trend amongst many IFB's to judge a person unsaved like they would a book by it's cover without even taking the time to read the story. We can judge sin in a believers life, there fruit or lack thereof, there doctrine but where in the Word does it say we can blithely take God's place as Savior and condemn people unsaved by our words?
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2Tim, I didn't need you to re-post anything...as I said, I re-read the thread. And there is nothing wrong with the statements that you highlighted. They didn't come from judgmental thoughts by the posters, nor assumptions based on glimpses of someone's life. What they stated was factual. There are people who claim the name of Christ but who are not truly saved.

As to the posts that you did quote: If you have a question about what they might have meant, ask them individually (specifically John with your question - or, rather, demand - about scripture [fwiw, it's always a good idea to require scriptural proof, imo - just, mayhap a bit nicer...]) Try reading the entire post...

I'm sorry, but I don't believe that someone who is truly saved will FULLY reject Christ. They might be hurt, angry, or bitter, but there will always be something (the Holy Spirit) inside them nudging them, even if it's minutely. I know a number of people like this. And I know of people who claimed the name of Christ, only to realize later that they were not saved. It does happen - that isn't book cover judging, it's fact.

And please note that I didn't say you condemned anyone...I said calm down. And I stand by that. Thank you.

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If salvation was in your head, you could change your mind and reject, renounce the sprit. Sort of like Saul in the OT.
But if salvation is in your heart, a leopard cannot change its' spots, nor an Ethiopian his skin.

It is incorruptible seed. Not just mental thoughts.

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2Tim, I didn't need you to re-post anything...as I said, I re-read the thread. And there is nothing wrong with the statements that you highlighted. They didn't come from judgmental thoughts by the posters, nor assumptions based on glimpses of someone's life. What they stated was factual. There are people who claim the name of Christ but who are not truly saved.

As to the posts that you did quote: If you have a question about what they might have meant, ask them individually (specifically John with your question - or, rather, demand - about scripture [fwiw, it's always a good idea to require scriptural proof, imo - just, mayhap a bit nicer...]) Try reading the entire post...

I'm sorry, but I don't believe that someone who is truly saved will FULLY reject Christ. They might be hurt, angry, or bitter, but there will always be something (the Holy Spirit) inside them nudging them, even if it's minutely. I know a number of people like this. And I know of people who claimed the name of Christ, only to realize later that they were not saved. It does happen - that isn't book cover judging, it's fact.

And please note that I didn't say you condemned anyone...I said calm down. And I stand by that. Thank you.


There is no reason for me to "calm down" when I am already calm. This is not the first time that I have seen this trend here nor I am sure the last. I stand by what I said and will every time I see this and I disagree with your statement - we will, can and are able to FULLY reject Christ even though saved and sealed with His Blood - the difference is HE will never reject us. Maybe we should stop looking to see if everyone else's profession of faith is REAL and look to our own.

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

So in line with the thread - Yes we can renounce our salvation, but this in no way diminishes, takes away or nullifies our salvation as it from God and not from us! It's like an unbeliever trying to sell his soul to the devil - ridiculous!!!! The devil already owns their souls (Mat 12:30).
We are bought and paid for with a price -

1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
1Co 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

These very verses imply that they did not glorify God and had to be chastised into doing so - all sin is the same in God's eyes so why would "renouncing" be any different? We are bought for and are not our own and even if we did renounce God we can not give up what is not ours to give. So again, yes we can in the emptiness and futility of our own strength but our "renunciation" means nothing against the Grace of Christ. Edited by 2Tim215
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