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         33
      Closed Communion
      James Foley
       
      I Corinthians 11:17-34: "Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's Supper. For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not. For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord's death till he come. Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another. And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come."

      INTRODUCTION

      Historic Baptists, true Baptists, have believed in and still believe in closed communion. Baptists impose upon themselves the same restrictions that they impose on others concerning the Lord’s Supper. Baptists have always insisted that it is the Lord’s Table, not theirs; and He alone has the right to say who shall sit at His table. No amount of so called brotherly love, or ecumenical spirit, should cause us to invite to His table those who have not complied with the requirements laid down plainly in His inspired Word. With respect to Bible doctrines we must always use the scripture as our guide and practice. For Baptists, two of the most important doctrines are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper. These are the only two doctrines we recognize as Church Ordinances. The Bible is very clear in teaching how these doctrines are to be practiced and by whom.

      We only have two ordinances that we must never compromise or we risk our very existence, they are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper.

      The moment we deviate from the precise method God has prescribed we have started down the slippery slope of error. True Baptists have held fast to the original doctrine of The Lord’s Supper from the time of Christ and the Apostles.

      Unfortunately, in this day of what the Bible describes as the age of luke warmness, Baptists are becoming careless in regard to strictly following the pattern laid out for us in Scripture. Many of our Bible colleges are graduating otherwise sincere, Godly and dedicated pastors and teachers who have not been taught the very strict, biblical requirements that surround the Lord’s Supper. Any Bible college that neglects to teach its students the differences surrounding Closed Communion, Close Communion and Open Communion is not simply short changing its students; it is also not equipping their students to carry on sound Bible traditions. The result is men of God and churches that fall into error. And as we will see, this is serious error.

      Should we as Baptists ignore the restrictions made by our Lord and Master? NO! When we hold to the restrictions placed upon the Lord’s Supper by our Master, we are defending the "faith which was once delivered to the saints" Jude 3.

      The Lord’s Supper is rigidly restricted and I will show this in the following facts:

      IT IS RESTRICTED AS TO PLACE

      A. I Corinthians 11:18 says, "When ye come together in the church." This does not mean the church building; they had none. In other words, when the church assembles. The supper is to be observed by the church, in church capacity. Again this does not mean the church house. Ekklesia, the Greek word for church, means assembly. "When ye come together in the church," is when the church assembles.

      B. When we say church we mean an assembly of properly baptized believers. Acts 2:41-42: "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers."

      The church is made up of saved people who are baptized by immersion. In the Bible, belief precedes baptism. That’s the Bible way.

      Acts 8:12-13, "But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done."

      When we say properly baptized, we mean immersed. No unbeliever should take the Lord’s supper, and no non-immersed believer should take the supper. Those who are sprinkled are not baptized and cannot receive the supper. The Greek word for baptize is baptizo, and it always means to immerse.

      "In every case where communion is referred to, or where it may possibly have been administered, the believers had been baptized Acts 2:42; 8:12; 8:38; 10:47; 6:14-15; 18:8; 20:7. Baptism comes before communion, just as repentance and faith precede baptism".

      C. The Lord’s Supper is for baptized believers in church capacity: "When ye come together in the church," again not a building, but the assembly of the properly baptized believers.

      D. The fact that the Lord’s Supper is a church ordinance, to be observed in church capacity, is pointed out by the fact that it is for those who have been immersed and added to the fellowship of the church.

      E. The Lord’s Supper is never spoken of in connection with individuals. When it is referred to, it is only referred to in reference to baptized believers in local church capacity I Cor. 11:20-26).

      I want to quote Dr. W.W. Hamilton,

      "The individual administration of the ordinance has no Bible warrant and is a relic of Romanism. The Lord’s Supper is a church ordinance, and anything which goes beyond or comes short of this fails for want of scriptural example or command".

      “The practice of taking a little communion kit to hospitals, nursing homes, etc. is unscriptural and does not follow the scriptural example.”

      IT IS RESTRICTED TO A UNITED CHURCH

      A. The Bible in I Cor. 11:18 is very strong in condemning divisions around the Lord’s table. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
      19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
      20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.

      There were no less than four divisions in the Corinthian church.
      I Cor. 1:12: "Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ."

      Because of these divisions, it was impossible for them to scripturally eat the Lord’s Supper. Division in the local church is reason to hold off observing the Lord’s Supper. But there are also other reasons to forego taking the Lord’s Supper. If there is gross sin in the membership we do not take it. Here is scriptural evidence for this: 1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us:
      8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
      10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

      B. At this point, I want to ask these questions: Are there not doctrinal divisions among the many denominations? Is it not our doctrinal differences that cause us to be separate religious bodies?

      IT IS RESTRICTED BY DOCTRINE

      A. Those in the early church at Jerusalem who partook "continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine" Acts 2:42. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

      B. Those that do not hold to apostolic truth are not to partake. This means there is to be discipline in the local body. How can you discipline those who do not belong to the local body? You can’t. The clear command of scripture is to withdraw fellowship from those who are not doctrinally sound.

      II Thes 3:6: "Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us."
      Rom. 16:17: "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them."
      To commune together means to have the same doctrine.
      II Thes. 2:15: "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."
      II John 10-11: "If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds."

      C. Some Baptists in our day have watered down this doctrine by practicing what they call “Close Communion.” By this they mean that they believe that members of another Baptist church may take communion with us because they are of the same beliefs. Once again, this is unscriptural.

      The welcome to the Lord's Table should not be extended beyond the discipline of the local church. When we take the Lord’s Supper there is supposed to be no gross sin among us and no divisions among us. We have no idea of the spiritual condition of another church’s members. If there is sin or division in the case of this other church’s members, we have no way of knowing it. We cannot discipline them because they are not members of our church. This is why we practice “Closed” communion, meaning it is restricted solely to our church membership. 
      So then, in closing I would like to reiterate the three different ideas concerning the Lord’s Supper and who is to take it. 
      Closed Communion = Only members of a single local church. 
      Close Communion = Members of like faith and order may partake. 
      Open Communion = If you claim to be a Christian, or simply attending the service, you may partake. 
      It is no small thing to attempt to change that which was implemented by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 
      Mt. 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. 
      Many of our Baptist churches have a real need to consider the gravity of the act of observing The Lord’s Supper. It is not a light thing that is to be taken casually or without regard to the spiritual condition of ourselves or our church.
      1Co. 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

       28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

       29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

       30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

95 Theses Against Dispensationalism


anime4christ
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So when God said divide He meant didn't mean divide, even though we have a New Testament and an Old Testament? Even though the Bible speaks clearly about before the law, under the law, and after the law? The sections are there, and the Scripture bears witness to them, river anologies notwithstanding.

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So when God said divide He meant didn't mean divide, even though we have a New Testament and an Old Testament? Even though the Bible speaks clearly about before the law, under the law, and after the law? The sections are there, and the Scripture bears witness to them, river anologies notwithstanding.

So, you believe there are three dispensations in Scripture?
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Cal them whatever to like (except dispensations :P) but I see only (sort of) 3 periods of time in which God deals differently with all of humanity: 1) in the garden, life was conditioned on works: eat fruit, die; don't eat, live. 2) after the fall, salvation is by grace alone; works are futile in achieving salvation. 3) after the cross, the church is formed as a new covenant community, awareness of God's law and grace is raised, gentiles are folded into the New covenant, the Holy Spirit's activity increases on earth and in people.

However, there are several things to bear in mind about these "ages". Adam and Eve were the only people present when salvation transitioned from works to grace, although technically salvation by works was never possible since it was a state of innocence rather than righteousness before the fall and there was nothing to save from at that point. So salvation has always been by grace, works ultimately only resulted in condemnation. While the New covenant did bring in more awareness and saw the fulfillment in Jesus which was not known as to how it will be fulfilled before, the old testament saints were saved by the same means as new testament saints, and awaited the same promises as we do. There is very much that can be said about the differences and similarities between the time before Christ and after.

We will be judged according to our works, but we won't be saved by our works. Our works will be the evidence in the court which will speak as to whether we were saved or not.

Edited by anime4christ
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We will be judged according to our works, but we will be saved by our works. Our works will be the evidence in the court which will speak as to whether we were saved or not.


Absolute lie! We are saved by grace alone and our works are not evidence of salvation but of our love and obedience to our Lord and Savior.
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Absolute lie! We are saved by grace alone and our works are not evidence of salvation but of our love and obedience to our Lord and Savior.


Isn't obedience doing something and not doing something else, ie. Works? And yes the motivation for our obedience is love. Our works and their motives will be the evidence of our salvation on judgment day.
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Isn't obedience doing something and not doing something else, ie. Works? And yes the motivation for our obedience is love. Our works and their motives will be the evidence of our salvation on judgment day.


Seems you said it pretty good. I will carry it a step further.


1Co 3:11 ¶ For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Co 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Yes, we the saved will be judged accordingly to our works, & if any is left, them we will receive a reward, some will not have a reward, the Bible is quite clear, those will be saved as by fire. In that judgment we will not be judge weather we are saved or not saved, for only the saved will stand before this judgment seat, this judgment will only be for rewards.

Our works are evidence we are saved, our fellow believers cannot read out hearts thus Jesus says by their works we shall know them.

Mt 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Of course there be many that hate this verse, & go around claiming we are never to judge anyone, which contradicts what Jesus tells us.

I might add, even those that stand before the ‘great white throne,’ will be judge according to works.

Re 20:11 ¶ And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Re 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Re 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Re 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Re 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


And of course we will be judged by the words written within the pages of the Bible that God has provided us with.

Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Ro 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

I suppose many will be very surprised to find out that we will be judge by the very words of this old ‘Black Book.’ Probably some will say if I had only known that I would not only had carried it back & forth to church, I would have opened it, read it, & even studied it as our God told us to. Others may say, if I had known that it would have never gathered dust just laying on a shelf.

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Yet, no one will have an excuse.

Ro 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

All we can do is ‘trust & obey.’
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I'm sorry, that was a typo because it's hard to write on this phone. I meant to say we are NOT saved by our works. I think that is evident from the rest of what I said.


Cool




Isn't obedience doing something and not doing something else, ie. Works? And yes the motivation for our obedience is love. Our works and their motives will be the evidence of our salvation on judgment day.


Put that way, then yes, obedience would be "evidence of salvation. But unlike some, I do not believe that saved believers who due to circumstances and wrong choices do not live lives of evident works are not saved because some Christians do not see their works. Many "Christians" who have wonderful work filled lives that everyone sees all the time have secret sins that they hide. Rather a fallible believer than a devious one. The problem with not seeing that God deals differently with man at different times (regardless of what term we use to label it) is that false doctrines like "kingdom now" , "Calvinism" , "Lordship salvation" and "repentance based salvation" just to mention a few arise.
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Was the dispensation of the law for Israel only or all humanity? I really would hate to be under a dispensation where only some small tribe I've never heard of knows about it and can do what is necessary in that particular dispensation to be saved. Do you see where covenants are biblical and dispensations are not? Dispensations are like mathematical formulas through which God puts everyone in a certain time period through while covenants are explicit displays of God's love towards certain and specific people with whom he chooses to establish a covenant with in any time he chooses. The reason why "calvinists" see covenants is because they fit very well with God's sovereign choice which is evident all throughout scripture while non-Calvinists usually lean to a formula type salvation where each dispensation requires a different variable from the person's side in order to inherit salvation. Then there's the strange Calvinist/dispensational hybrid which makes no sense whatsoever.

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Cool



Put that way, then yes, obedience would be "evidence of salvation. But unlike some, I do not believe that saved believers who due to circumstances and wrong choices do not live lives of evident works are not saved because some Christians do not see their works. Many "Christians" who have wonderful work filled lives that everyone sees all the time have secret sins that they hide. Rather a fallible believer than a devious one. The problem with not seeing that God deals differently with man at different times (regardless of what term we use to label it) is that false doctrines like "kingdom now" , "Calvinism" , "Lordship salvation" and "repentance based salvation" just to mention a few arise.

Just because some people can put up a front of living holy even when they are not is no reason to believe a person can be saved and never show signs of salvation.

No saved person is perfect, and we are not to look for perfection as proof one is saved. What Scripture says is that when a person is saved they are new creatures, they are no longer the same. When a person is saved the Holy Ghost comes to reside within them and they cannot live as before. That does't mean the saved person will instantly appear to be holy, but it does mean there will be noticible change in their lives. It also means over the course of time there will be evidence of their salvation by the work of the Holy Spirit in their lives.

I really don't know how you think believing in dispensations can prevent false teachings or teachings you don't agree with from being accepted by folks. There are charismatics, pentacostals and others who believe in dispensationalism yet also hold to some odd teachings as well.

I dont' know what "kingdom now" is. I know some about Calvinism, part of which I've learned is that what anti-Calvinists think Calvinism is often isn't what those who actually are Calvinists hold to. I know some about "Lordship salvation", and again this seems to be an area where those who claim to oppose have a different view of what it is than those who say they hold to such.

What is "repentance based salvation"?
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Dispensation mens a dispensing of something, not a period of time.

The jews believed in a 6,000 history of the world. First 2,000 years, the age of Chaos. The second 2,000 years the age of the law. The third 2,000 years, would be the age of the Messiah, but he didn't come because they did not keep the law.

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Was the dispensation of the law for Israel only or all humanity? Yes - for all humanity!!! (Exo 12:48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof. - Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. )
I really would hate to be under a dispensation where only some small tribe I've never heard of knows about it and can do what is necessary in that particular dispensation to be saved. This is not biblical Do you see where covenants are biblical and dispensations are not? No I don't - both are biblical Dispensations are like mathematical formulas through which God puts everyone in a certain time period through while covenants are explicit displays of God's love towards certain and specific people with whom he chooses to establish a covenant with in any time he chooses. The reason why "calvinists" see covenants is because they fit very well with God's sovereign choice which is evident all throughout scripture (Rubbish!! Ex 12: 48 shows that that the stranger chooses to keep the passover - "will keep" being the act of the person, not God - in God's "covenant with us we must believe - also an action on our part) while non-Calvinists usually lean to a formula type salvation where each dispensation requires a different variable from the person's side in order to inherit salvation. Then there's the strange Calvinist/dispensational hybrid which makes no sense whatsoever.


Tim
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Just because some people can put up a front of living holy even when they are not is no reason to believe a person can be saved and never show signs of salvation.
I did not say never - Isaid "do not live lives of evident works are not saved because some Christians do not see their works"

No saved person is perfect, and we are not to look for perfection as proof one is saved. What Scripture says is that when a person is saved they are new creatures, they are no longer the same. When a person is saved the Holy Ghost comes to reside within them and they cannot live as before. That does't mean the saved person will instantly appear to be holy, but it does mean there will be noticible change in their lives. It also means over the course of time there will be evidence of their salvation by the work of the Holy Spirit in their lives. Exactly - though I must add that we can choose to grieve the Holy Spirit by not obeying His leading and thus take longer to live lives conformed to the image of Christ.

I really don't know how you think believing in dispensations can prevent false teachings or teachings you don't agree with from being accepted by folks. There are charismatics, pentacostals and others who believe in dispensationalism yet also hold to some odd teachings as well. True, sadly, like the pagans and Muslims, we Christians can agree on nothing and spend more time arguing points of doctrine than spreading the good news of salvation through Christ. But to give an example, by not using dispensational doctrine that shows that the book of acts is a transitional book we have tongues; Holy Spirit baptism as a separate step in salvation; individuals with the "gift" to be healers and prophets and many other false teachings in modern churches. Another being that you are not saved if you don't speak in tongues.

I dont' know what "kingdom now" is. I know some about Calvinism, part of which I've learned is that what anti-Calvinists think Calvinism is often isn't what those who actually are Calvinists hold to. I know some about "Lordship salvation", and again this seems to be an area where those who claim to oppose have a different view of what it is than those who say they hold to such. "Kingdom now" is for those that believe that Jesus has already come, that there is no rapture of the church, that we are in the Millennium kingdom and that the blessings for the Jews apply to all - especially prosperity. Prosperity teachers like to use some "kingdom now" concepts to prove the health, wealth and me me doctrine taught today.

What is "repentance based salvation"?

Salvation based on the precept that it is repentance PLUS faith in order to be saved when it is clear in Acts that it is by faith alone.



Act 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
Act 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
Act 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
Act 15:12 Then all the multitude kept silence,
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So, you believe there are three dispensations in Scripture?



I don't mind telling people what I believe when they ask, even if I've already said it once before (LINK).

1. Innocence.
2. Conscience.
3. Human Government.
4. Promise.
5. Law.
6. Apostolic Age.
7. Church Age.
8. Tribulation.
9. Millennium.
10. New Heavens and New Earth.

I'll add one thing, just in case you asked me this just to turn my answer back around on me, in-house discussions and debates as to the number of dispensations and the manner in which people were saved during these dispensations are irrelevant to the discussion at hand. The point of dispensational study is to recognize that God deals with different people at different times in different manners. Not everyone sees it the same, and it’s not a big deal that they don’t. Edited by Rick Schworer
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<p>





I don't mind telling people what I believe when they ask, even if I've already said it once before (LINK).

1. Innocence.
2. Conscience.
3. Human Government.
4. Promise.
5. Law.
6. Apostolic Age.
7. Church Age.
8. Tribulation.
9. Millennium.
10. New Heavens and New Earth.

I'll add one thing, just in case you asked me this just to turn my answer back around on me, in-house discussions and debates as to the number of dispensations and the manner in which people were saved during these dispensations are irrelevant to the discussion at hand. The point of dispensational study is to recognize that God deals with different people at different times in different manners. Not everyone sees it the same, and it’s not a big deal that they don’t.

I basically agree with your list, with the following exceptions:

1. Innocence
2. Conscience
3. Human Government
4. Promise
5. Law
6. Church Age
7. Millennium

I believe that%2 Edited by LindaR
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Hebrews 11 takes examples from ALL those supposed "dispensations" (except innocence) & makes it clear that all were saved by an active faith in God.

Scofield explains disps thus:

A dispensation is a period of time during which man is tested in respect of obedience to some specific revelation of the will of God. Seven such dispensations are distinguished in Scripture.

The disp concept is read into Scripture & used as a basis for interpretation. The word disp in the sense used is completely foreign to Scripture. According to Scripture, salvation is by covenant - God's everlasting covenant with man. (Heb. 13.) Covenant (sometimes translated ("testament") is used over 300 times. There are various covenants typical of the new covenant, which is secured at Calvary by our Saviour. The New covenant is the everlasting fully & perfectly secured & ratified. (Scofield lists 8, but none but the New (Everlasting) saves.) There is no salvation by man's obedience in a dispensation, nor by man's obedience to a covenant.

We are saved by grace, through faith in Jesus, by the blood of the everlasting covenant.
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No trib? Are you post-trib, Linda?

No Rick, I am not post-trib. I believe in a pre-tribulation rapture of the Church age believers. There is definitely going to be a 7 year tribulation before the Second Coming and Millennium. I don't know why I didn't include the Tribulation in that list...it does need to be there. Church age does end with the rapture.

However, salvation will be by grace through faith...even during the Tribulation period. The Holy Spirit will not indwell those who believe during the Tribulation, but He will "come upon" people as He did in the Old Testament times. Salvation will be more difficult...those who truly believe during the Tribulation will be martyred.

I am a pre-trib, pre-mil, futurist believer.

In a nutshell, dispensational theology is "rightly dividing the Word of Truth" (2 Tim. 2:15) Edited by LindaR
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The disp concept is read into Scripture & used as a basis for interpretation. The word disp in the sense used is completely foreign to Scripture. According to Scripture, salvation is by covenant - God's everlasting covenant with man. (Heb. 13.) Covenant (sometimes translated ("testament") is used over 300 times. There are various covenants typical of the new covenant, which is secured at Calvary by our Saviour. The New covenant is the everlasting fully & perfectly secured & ratified. (Scofield lists 8, but none but the New (Everlasting) saves.) There is no salvation by man's obedience in a dispensation, nor by man's obedience to a covenant.

We are saved by grace, through faith in Jesus, by the blood of the everlasting covenant.



Who said anything about salvation, Ian? That's not even in the subject. The idea is that God dealt differently with mankind in these dispensations as a whole. God was sending hornets to fight for an army that He told to invade another nation. He ruled a nation directly through a system of laws that include animal sacrifices and restrictions on bacon (glad that rule is gone). That's very different than how He deals with nations today.

When Jesus did show up, He originally told his disciples to preach only to Israel, and to ignore the Gentiles. Then they go around healing people and doing amazing miracles. Before that, John the Baptist was dunking people in water BEFORE they got saved and trusted Christ, not after. God doesn't do things that way now.

Before the law, God dealt with people differently than He did under the law.

Then there's the New Heavens and New Earth. It's a perfect age with perfect people in it. God will deal with people differently then than He does now.

That right there should be four dispensations, or ages, that you as an A-mill Preterist should at least be able to agree with. Edited by Rick Schworer
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    • Razor

      “Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to reform (or pause and reflect).”
      ― Mark Twain
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    • Razor

      “Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to reform (or pause and reflect).”
      ― Mark Twain
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    • Razor

      Psalms 139 Psalm 139:9-10
      9. If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; 10. even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy righthand shall hold me. 
       
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    • Bro. West  »  Pastor Scott Markle

      Advanced revelation, then...prophecy IS advanced revelation in the context of the apostles.
      I really do not know where you are going with this. The Bible itself has revelations and prophecies and not all revelations are prophecies.
      Paul had things revealed to him that were hid and unknown that the Gentiles would be fellow heirs.
      How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Eph 3:3-9
      And I do not mean this as a Hyper-dispensationalist would, for there were people in Christ before Paul (Rom. 16:7). This is not prophecy for there are none concerning the Church age in the O.T..
      Israel rejected the New Wine (Jesus Christ) and said the Old Wine (law) was better, had they tasted the New Wine there would be no church age or mystery as spoken above. to be revealed.
      It was a revealed mystery. Sure there are things concerning the Gentiles after the this age. And we can now see types in the Old Testament (Boaz and Ruth) concerning a Gentile bride, but this is hindsight.
      Peter could have had a ham sandwich in Acts 2, but he did not know it till later, by revelation. But this has nothing to do with 1John 2;23 and those 10 added words in italics. Where did they get them? Did the violate Pro. 30:6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar. Where did they get this advance revelation? Was it from man, God or the devil?
        I just read your comment and you bypassed what I wrote concerning book arrangement, chapters being added and verse numberings and such. There is no scripture support for these either, should we reject these?
      Happy New Year
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    • Bro. West

      Seeing it is Christ----mas time and I was answering question on Luke 2:33 concerning Jesus, Mary and Joseph . I thought it would be fitting to display a poem i wrote concerning the matter.
      SCRIPTURAL MARY

      I WALK NOT ON WATER NOR CHANGE IT TO WINE
      SO HEARKEN O’ SINNER TO THIS STORY OF MINE
      I, AM A DAUGHTER OF ABRAHAM SINNER BY BIRTH
      A HAND MAID OF LOW ESTATE USED HERE ON EARTH
      MY HAIR IS NOT GENTILE BLOND, I HAVE NOT EYES OF BLUE
      A MOTHER OF MANY CHILDREN A DAUGHTER OF A JEW
      FOR JOSEPH MY HUSBAND DID HONOUR OUR BED
      TO FATHER OUR CHILDREN WHO NOW ARE ALL DEAD
      BUT I SPEAK NOT OF THESE WHO I LOVED SO WELL
      BUT OF THE FIRST BORN WHICH SAVED ME FROM HELL
      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY SO TRUST ME NOT
                                               2
      WHEN I WAS A VIRGIN UNKNOWN BY MAN
      THE ANGEL OF GOD SPOKE OF GOD’S PLAN
      FOR I HAD BEEN CHOSEN A FAVOUR VESSEL OF CLAY
      TO BARE THE SON OF THE HIGHEST BY AN UNUSUAL WAY
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      I THOUGHT ON THESE THINGS WITH SO NEEDLESS FEARS
      BUT A DREAM HE RECEIVED ENDED ALL FEARS
      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY SO TRUST ME NOT
                                              3
      THEN MY SOUL DID REJOICE IN GOD MY SAVIOR
      HE SCATTERED THE PROUD AND BLESS ME WITH FAVOR
      O’ THE RICH ARE EMPTY, THE HUNGRY HAVE GOOD THINGS
      FOR THE THRONE OF DAVID WOULD HAVE JESUS THE KING
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      ON A BEAST OF BURDEN OUR STRENGTH NEAR SPEND
      NO ROOM AT An INN, BUT A STABLE WAS FOUND
      WITH STRAW AND DUNG LAID ON THE GROUND
      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY, SO TRUST ME NOT
                                                  4
      MY MATRIX WAS OPEN IN A PLACE SO PROFANE
      FROM THE GLORY OF GLORIES TO A BEGGAR’S DOMAIN
      SO WE WRAPPED THE CHILD GIVEN TO THE HEATHEN A STRANGER
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      AND MURDER RACHEL’S CHILDREN UNDER TWO YEARS OLD
      BUT JOSEPH MY HUSBAND WAS WARNED IN A DREAM
      SO WE FLED INTO EGYPT BECAUSE OF HIS SCHEME
      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY SO TRUST ME NOT
                                               5
      SO THE GIVER OF LIFE, THE ROCK OF ALL AGES
      GREW UP TO FULFILL THE HOLY PAGES
      HE PREACH WITH AUTHORITY LIKE NONE BEFORE
      PLEASE TRUST HIS WORDS AND NOT THE GREAT WHORE
      HER BLACK ROBE PRIEST FILL THEIR LIPS WITH MY NAME
      WITH BLASPHEMOUS PRAISE, DAMMATION AND SHAME
      THERE ARE NO NAIL PRINTS IN MY HANDS, MY BODY DID NOT ARISE
      NOR, AM A DEMON OF FATIMA FLOATING IN THE SKY
      THERE IS NO DEITY IN MY VEINS FOR ADAM CAME FROM SOD
      FOR I, AM, MOTHER OF THE SON OF MAN NOT THE MOTHER OF GOD
      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY, SO TRUST ME NOT
      6
      FOR MY SOUL WAS PURCHASED BY GOD UPON THE CROSS
      FOR MY SINS HE DID SUFFER AN UNMEASURABLE COST
      I WILL NOT STEAL HIS GLORY WHO ROSE FROM THE DEAD
      ENDURING SPIT AND THORNS PLACED ON HIS HEAD
      YET, IF YOU WISH TO HONOR ME THEN GIVE ME NONE AT ALL
      BUT TRUST THE LAMB WHO STOOL IN PILATE’S HALL
      CALL NOT ON THIS REDEEMED WOMAN IN YOUR TIME OF FEAR
      FOR I WILL NOT GIVE ANSWER NEITHER WILL I HEAR
      AND WHEN THE BOOKS ARE OPEN AT THE GREAT WHITE THRONE
      I AMEN YOUR DAMNATION THAT TRUST NOT HIM ALONE
      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY, O’ SINNER TRUST ME NOT

                       WRITTEN BY BRO. WEST
       
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