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Why do we allow women to sing in church


rancher824
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I would like to say I am sorry to all those who are upset with me. I know I have been sounding much like a Thomas Cooper. This has been a experiment of a sort. I told HappyChristian at the beginning what was going on. I have noticed on this board, as well as in life, many that take the scripture out of context and twist it to say what they want it to. And no matter how we try, they will not look at it with open eyes. I guess we all fall into this group at times, but some are worse than others. I chose these verses and this topic because the verses are very often taken for other places they do not belong. There have been many times I have read that women should not work, (even if single or no children in the home) or esp be in politics, and these are the verses they run to as proof. But that is not what they are saying. They are talking of preaching and teaching IN THE CHURCH. They are not about every day life. But if we want to try and use them for things outside the leadership of the church, we put ourselves into a place we would have to accept that women should not speak or sing in front of men. There was a topic not long ago about the American revolution, trying to prove it was unbiblical for the colonists to declare independence. But with the logic used in that topic we would have to say women cannot sing!! But that is not what the Bible is saying. Again, I would like to say I am sorry to anyone that I got to upset. I think many gave great answers. As to the questions being over and over, that is something we run up on with those who want to push crazy doctrine. And yes I agree I was sounding crazy!!!!! :smilie_loco:4


When I first saw this topic, I thought, "WOW, this guy is waaaaaay out there!" I thought it was clever and stimulating. While some will chide and rebuke you, I have noticed that it is in those people's natures to chide and rebuke everyone!
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  • Lady Administrators



Actually, the context here is clear as to it speaking to preaching and teaching, just as the context in Romans is clear that Christians are to be OBedient to their government, and one can't be OBedient to their government by turning against them and establishing their own any more than a child can be OBedient to their parents by turning against them and declaring they are now their own authority.

In any event, it isn't right to sow discord through distortion of Scripture even if attempting to make a point.

Scripture supports itself and whether this topic, Christian OBedience to government, man's position in the family, or another, if we leave outside material, personal preference, tradition, things taught to us outside of Scripture and such things out of the way, we can take Scripture for what it says.



John, rancher's point in this thread was, just as he explained, that context can be OBvious and yet people apply their own meanings. As in the American Revolution thread. The context in Romans in no way states that Christians cannot form a new government. That is an extrapolation that is erroneously made and wrongly taught - leading to a severe misunderstanding of what God expects.

Yes, scripture supports itself, and so we can know that, for example, Deborah was a judge raised up by God and judges were leaders because .of the groundwork God laid in the first couple of chapters of Judges. But all too often people try to explain it away because the words "God raised her (him) up" are missing from that particular account. Scripture supports itself in the time of the judges by the beginnings God laid down.

No-one has questioned man's position in the family. But I will say this: each husband makes the decisions God leads him to do for his own particular family. Yep, there are clear cut things where it is OBvious if the man is making a wrong decision. But not every action has a command. And so what my husband decides may not jive with what some of the men on this forum would decide and vice versa, it is not up to any man to tell another man how to lead his family (other than what is clear cut in scripture).

Yep, Christians should OBey the law. But let's remember: the law says abortion is okay. Now, I know the quick answer to that is that we must OBey God rather than man. But the simple fact of the matter is, that if the incumbent government is to be OBeyed as has been presented, then all laws that are passed during that incumbency are ordained and thus of God and must be OBeyed. Explain it away all one wants, but them's the facts.

Actually, the idea rancher brought up is interesting. Especially when you think that Jews and Muslims do not combine men and women in worship. Ahhh - the freedom that comes with Christ!!!
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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

I would like to say I am sorry to all those who are upset with me. I know I have been sounding much like a Thomas Cooper. This has been a experiment of a sort. I told HappyChristian at the beginning what was going on. I have noticed on this board, as well as in life, many that take the scripture out of context and twist it to say what they want it to. And no matter how we try, they will not look at it with open eyes. I guess we all fall into this group at times, but some are worse than others. I chose these verses and this topic because the verses are very often taken for other places they do not belong. There have been many times I have read that women should not work, (even if single or no children in the home) or esp be in politics, and these are the verses they run to as proof. But that is not what they are saying. They are talking of preaching and teaching IN THE CHURCH. They are not about every day life. But if we want to try and use them for things outside the leadership of the church, we put ourselves into a place we would have to accept that women should not speak or sing in front of men. There was a topic not long ago about the American revolution, trying to prove it was unbiblical for the colonists to declare independence. But with the logic used in that topic we would have to say women cannot sing!! But that is not what the Bible is saying. Again, I would like to say I am sorry to anyone that I got to upset. I think many gave great answers. As to the questions being over and over, that is something we run up on with those who want to push crazy doctrine. And yes I agree I was sounding crazy!!!!! :smilie_loco:4

You certainly had me thinking because I love to participate in the congregational singing at church. Our worship leader would be sorely upset if none of the women sang at our church. Thank you for giving us all some insight in how many can take scripture way out of context to try and prove a point. God bless!
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John, rancher's point in this thread was, just as he explained, that context can be OBvious and yet people apply their own meanings. As in the American Revolution thread. The context in Romans in no way states that Christians cannot form a new government. That is an extrapolation that is erroneously made and wrongly taught - leading to a severe misunderstanding of what God expects.

Yes, scripture supports itself, and so we can know that, for example, Deborah was a judge raised up by God and judges were leaders because .of the groundwork God laid in the first couple of chapters of Judges. But all too often people try to explain it away because the words "God raised her (him) up" are missing from that particular account. Scripture supports itself in the time of the judges by the beginnings God laid down.

No-one has questioned man's position in the family. But I will say this: each husband makes the decisions God leads him to do for his own particular family. Yep, there are clear cut things where it is OBvious if the man is making a wrong decision. But not every action has a command. And so what my husband decides may not jive with what some of the men on this forum would decide and vice versa, it is not up to any man to tell another man how to lead his family (other than what is clear cut in scripture).

Yep, Christians should OBey the law. But let's remember: the law says abortion is okay. Now, I know the quick answer to that is that we must OBey God rather than man. But the simple fact of the matter is, that if the incumbent government is to be OBeyed as has been presented, then all laws that are passed during that incumbency are ordained and thus of God and must be OBeyed. Explain it away all one wants, but them's the facts.

Actually, the idea rancher brought up is interesting. Especially when you think that Jews and Muslims do not combine men and women in worship. Ahhh - the freedom that comes with Christ!!!


I'll stick with what Scripture says.
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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Which is what I have been doing, now if we can only get all professing Christians to adopt that biblical approach. Or even half would be a major improvement. So many justifications for worldly matters are made outside of Scripture and then attempted to paint as biblical.

Whether contemporary, ancient or in-between, and this typically even covers history they have lived through, it seems most pastors greatly ere when they delve into historical matters and attempt to tie them to Scripture.

Would that men and women, husbands and wives, would read the Word and follow it's clear teachings and walk in the place God has designated for them and conduct themselves as God instructs. One thing for certain, those who do will face persecution and ridicule from the lost and from professing Christians.

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While you didn't tell me what you were doing it was so OBvious I had to join in and play along. It was a very effective manner to TEACH others on this board and make them stop and really think about what the Scriptures say and just not repeat what they've been taught somewhere.


The only thing your deception has taught me is whose posts to ignore in the future... thank you for the learning experience.
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  • Lady Administrators

Which is what I have been doing, now if we can only get all professing Christians to adopt that biblical approach. Or even half would be a major improvement. So many justifications for worldly matters are made outside of Scripture and then attempted to paint as biblical.

Actually, John, you haven't been on the two issues I mentioned. You've determined that scripture says what you want it to say...not what it actually says. And you're not willing to see it any different because you are absolutely set that you are correct.

Oh, John. The statement I bolded is really something. I'm not going to call it pious, because that's so offensive to one or two folks. But it is quite, shall we say, prideful sounding. I'm sure my statement will get a "rebuke" from at least one, maybe two people. And that's okay. But it's true...
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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist





Actually, the position I stood upon was solid Scripture. The position you took was that somehow it's okay to rebel against your government in order to form another government. One can't be subject to their government if they rebel against that government and one can't declare a new government without first declaring they are not subject to their government which violates Romans 13.

Scripture tells us (Christians) that if our government passes a law which requires us to disOBey God, we are to OBey God and refuse to submit to that particular law, yet remain subject to the government. As earlier Christians, and Christians in some parts of the world do today, they refuse to OBey the ungodly law, but they subject themselves to their government in every other aspect, even to the point of allowing themselves to be arrested, imprisoned or even executed for the sake of Christ.

With regards to your bolded portion; as a Christian I'm a part of the "all". There is no pride here as I'm a part of the all, not somehow above the all. There are still things I've not faced in my Christian walk, questions I've not been asked or had to consider, circumstances I've not faced, portions of Scripture the Lord hasn't led me to some in-depth aspect of, etc. No doubt I'll face many things over the course of however much longer my life is where I must choose to either take Scripture for what it says, accept some other reasoning outside of Scripture which ignores the Word or turns it, or to lean upon my own understanding. Along with all Christians, I do pray I may accept the Word as the Lord gave it rather than turning it to something else by my own thoughts or anothers.

As has been discussed here before, polls and surveys, as well as our own personal experience, indicates the vast majority of professing Christians don't read the Word daily, are very biblically illiterate, and tend to follow the teachings of others or their own way rather than Scripture. We should all desire that professing Christians would actually get into the Word and OBey it.
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  • Lady Administrators

John, the position you stood on was a solid misunderstanding of what Paul was saying in Romans 13.

I'm sorry, but this statement

Scripture tells us (Christians) that if our government passes a law which requires us to disOBey God, we are to OBey God and refuse to submit to that particular law, yet remain subject to the government. As earlier Christians, and Christians in some parts of the world do today, they refuse to OBey the ungodly law, but they subject themselves to their government in every other aspect, even to the point of allowing themselves to be arrested, imprisoned or even executed for the sake of Christ.
is inconsistent with itself.

There is no scripture that tells us to OBey God and refuse to submit to a particular law. The only verse that would give any indication of that is "We ought to OBey God rather than man." That was something the disciples told the Romans...it is part of the history of the church. It is not a doctrine taught in scripture. Not if your take on Romans 13 is correct.

The position I take is consistent with what Paul was instructing the Christians in Rome. He was in no way telling them they could never separate from their government. He was simply instructing them that a governmental structure is of God. I am amazed,really, that you can't see this. I'm not so sure that it's that you can't but simply won't.

If your position is correct, then any law passed by any government must be OBeyed by its citizenry. Any law. To pick and choose which laws the citizenry OBeys would be an act of rebellion, based on your application of Romans 13. It sounds mighty fine to say that we are to OBey every law except that which goes against God's Word (technically, I would agree with that idea...severing oneself from one's governmental system, however, is not rebellion...it is simply change),but it doesn't work consistently with your application. And God is consistent. All the time.

I apologize if I offended you for saying that the bolded part sounded prideful. It is true that the world would be better off if Christians would follow the Bible. It was the way it was worded that sounded like you were boasting. Thank you for clarifying.

I'm done derailing the thread. Sorry, rancher. :unsure:
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God is the ultimate authority and we are commanded to OBey Him first. Part of OBeying God is also OBeying those He puts over us here on earth, so long as they don't try to override God.

We are to be subject to our governments, other leaders, bosses, husbands (if you are a wife), parents, pastors etc. If any of them tell, order or demand we do something in clear violation of a command of God then we are to OBey God rather than them even while being subject to them otherwise. Beyond this, God has commanded that we be subject to these, not to resist them or become rebellious.

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Actually, the context here is clear as to it speaking to preaching and teaching, just as the context in Romans is clear that Christians are to be OBedient to their government, and one can't be OBedient to their government by turning against them and establishing their own any more than a child can be OBedient to their parents by turning against them and declaring they are now their own authority.

In any event, it isn't right to sow discord through distortion of Scripture even if attempting to make a point.

Scripture supports itself and whether this topic, Christian OBedience to government, man's position in the family, or another, if we leave outside material, personal preference, tradition, things taught to us outside of Scripture and such things out of the way, we can take Scripture for what it says.

Actually the child analogy is a very good one.
Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
Mat 19:5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
There comes a time for a child to leave the authority of his parents. He is always to give them honor, but not always OBey. I do not have to follow a curfew placed by my parents. I do not have to ask them before I go somewhere. I grew up, and married and moved out to start my family. The colonists tried to OBey British law, but the British refused to follow it. They tried to then move out on their own peacefully,but the British refused this as well. Now tell me, God put us here with a command
Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Now if a parent told their child they would never allow them to marry, should the child be happy staying single and living with their parent? Or when they find the one they believe God has for them, should they marry anyway and fulfill the command in Gen 1:28. Is there a time to disOBey those that the Bible commands to honor??
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Actually, the context here is clear as to it speaking to preaching and teaching, just as the context in Romans is clear that Christians are to be OBedient to their government, and one can't be OBedient to their government by turning against them and establishing their own any more than a child can be OBedient to their parents by turning against them and declaring they are now their own authority.

In any event, it isn't right to sow discord through distortion of Scripture even if attempting to make a point.

Scripture supports itself and whether this topic, Christian OBedience to government, man's position in the family, or another, if we leave outside material, personal preference, tradition, things taught to us outside of Scripture and such things out of the way, we can take Scripture for what it says.

Sorry, forgot to mention, I believe this would apply to your belief that Deborah was not a leader!!!
And just out of curiosity, if the context is so clear, why did you not mention it before I admitted that I was not serious. Did you just find the thread then? Or were you ignoring it for some reason? You have sure posted a lot since. Edited by rancher824
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You certainly had me thinking because I love to participate in the congregational singing at church. Our worship leader would be sorely upset if none of the women sang at our church. Thank you for giving us all some insight in how many can take scripture way out of context to try and prove a point. God bless!

I have seen churches that would be in a lot of trouble if the women did not sing. God might hear the joyful noise, but He would be the only one!!! :clapping:
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God is the ultimate authority and we are commanded to OBey Him first. Part of OBeying God is also OBeying those He puts over us here on earth, so long as they don't try to override God.

We are to be subject to our governments, other leaders, bosses, husbands (if you are a wife), parents, pastors etc. If any of them tell, order or demand we do something in clear violation of a command of God then we are to OBey God rather than them even while being subject to them otherwise. Beyond this, God has commanded that we be subject to these, not to resist them or become rebellious.

Can you show me where You get this word "our" in Romans 13? It is not there. Therefore, from what you are saying we should be as the Quakers and refuse to fight at all cost, even if it means our head. If we have a member of our church that enlists, or is drafted to go and fight in a war, are they not going against the powers that be. It would become a difficult situation, but the clear teaching would be not to fight. And I believe it has been mentioned before that the Christians in Paul's day did not rise against Rome. But I do not believe they rose up for Rome either. And especially if we were to fight on their land we would definitely be going against your definition of Romans 13.
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Rancher, I thought it was tongue in cheek from the beginning but, for a different reason. Which, drove me to look hard at the meaning in the Bible and check the definition from Strong's. I think the point should be received without anger, to some rebuke to others exhortation. To all the need to...

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Dr. Rod Bell, speaking on motive, once said, "If you don't study for God's approval...you just show yourself."

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