Yet "another" Calvanism thread

[DennisD]

Brother David Warner from Faithful Baptist Church in Omak, WA brought up a good point in one of his lectures. What goes through a Calvinist's mind when they are having children? I feel if there is at least a chance I can lead my children to the Lord than having children is wonderful but what if there was a chance my child would be pre-destined to Hell (and I couldn't do ANYTHING about it!)? I'd never have children again. Wouldn't want to risk it.

[LindaR]

Brother David Warner from Faithful Baptist Church in Omak, WA brought up a good point in one of his lectures. What goes through a Calvinist's mind when they are having children? I feel if there is at least a chance I can lead my children to the Lord than having children is wonderful but what if there was a chance my child would be pre-destined to Hell (and I couldn't do ANYTHING about it!)? I'd never have children again. Wouldn't want to risk it.

That's pretty sad...kind of like playing Russian Roulette. The doctrine of predestination and election is taken to the extreme in this case.

[Calvary]

@ John # 81, your friend the moderate Calvinist is stating classical Calvinism thought. The 1st post of mine easily answers him.


Some more...

God has a condition for His mercy. Those who meet the condition, find mercy. Those who do not, find His wrath. You and I cannot will God to have mercy upon us. That being said, we can however will to meet God’s conditions.
We will come to the Lord on His terms or we will not come. One can try to theologically excuse oneself, but in the end, the only person one has to blame for his condemnation is himself.

Some would say that Paul contradicts me in verse 17 of our passage in Romans 9.
Rom 9:17 …Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

The power here mentioned is the power God has to judge the sinner. So according to this verse it appears that God has raised up Pharaoh to rule over Egypt for the sole purpose of showing “the earth” His wrath and judgment on sin. So when Pharaoh appears to be repenting, God hardens his heart.

The Calvinist again seizes the narrative and says, See! I was right!! Pharaoh could never be saved!!
The prOBlem for the Calvinist is that I have read the whole Bible and he hopes I won’t turn your attention to Exodus and see what God actually said to Pharaoh.

Shall we?

The 1st thing I wish to point out is that God used His foreknowledge (just I said he always does in connection to election) to predict the actions of Pharaoh.
Exo 3:19 And I am sure that the king of Egypt will not let you go, no, not by a mighty hand.

God says that he knew before Moses ever returned to Egypt what Pharaoh would do. So this “hardening”, like election (1 Peter 1) and predestination (Romans 8) is preceded, always, by the foreknowledge of God.

In addition, God allows Pharaoh an entire chapter to pass without any hardening of his heart whatsoever.
Moses comes along for the 1st time and confronts Pharaoh in Exodus 5

Exo 5:1 And afterward Moses and Aaron went in, and told Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Let my people go, that they may hold a feast unto me in the wilderness.

How does Pharaoh respond?

Exo 5:2 And Pharaoh said, Who is the LORD, that I should OBey his voice to let Israel go? I know not the LORD, neither will I let Israel go.

That was Pharaoh all on his own hardening his heart. The Lord never touched him. That was Pharaoh’s free will.
The truth is God never hardened Pharaoh’s heart until after Pharaoh challenged Moses with his magicians in Exodus 7:11-14! Pharaoh in pure OBstinate willful pride hardened his heart and then God hardened his heart and not before.
So when Paul says in Roams 9:17 that God raised Pharaoh up to show His power, yes He did, but it was based upon the foreknowledge.
Listen beloved, God did not harden Pharaoh’s heart until he had 2 real chances to repent and OBey without God ever influencing his decision.

Luk 17:1 Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!

In other words, somebody in this world is going to defy the Lord and reject Jesus Christ BUT IT DOESN’T HAVE TO BE YOU! No one has to go to Hell if they don’t want to.
So the New Testament application of what is going on Exodus between the Lord and Pharaoh is that God will show mercy to anyone who comes to Him through His Son, but anyone who rejects His Son will find only the wrath of God abiding on him.

Sometime past I posted a thread on election. It was few years ago, don’t know if it still exists. If not, I’ll dig it out from wherever I have it collecting dust. But election is not what the average Calvinists thinks it is. In fact “the elect” is a classification, and it does not solely apply to a Christian. If I recall, Israel is God’s elect. Jesus Christ is God’s elect. Were there more? …

God bless,
Calvary

[John81]

@ John # 81, your friend the moderate Calvinist is stating classical Calvinism thought. The 1st post of mine easily answers him.


Some more...

God has a condition for His mercy. Those who meet the condition, find mercy. Those who do not, find His wrath. You and I cannot will God to have mercy upon us. That being said, we can however will to meet God’s conditions.
We will come to the Lord on His terms or we will not come. One can try to theologically excuse oneself, but in the end, the only person one has to blame for his condemnation is himself.


God bless,
Calvary

Good reply.

The rest of the post was good as well, but I wanted to specify this point.

[Bro Jim]

A gift is a gift and salvation is a gift, but a gift must be accepted to become a possession. I almost fell into a 70' pier hole, I caught the side and a 2x6, a man reach down to keep me from falling to the bottom. I had to reach up and accept his help.

[RayJr]

Brother David Warner from Faithful Baptist Church in Omak, WA brought up a good point in one of his lectures. What goes through a Calvinist's mind when they are having children? I feel if there is at least a chance I can lead my children to the Lord than having children is wonderful but what if there was a chance my child would be pre-destined to Hell (and I couldn't do ANYTHING about it!)? I'd never have children again. Wouldn't want to risk it.

I agree with that, it's hard enough waiting for them to come to Him, much less thinking that they may have no chance to. My question would be why would God send his Son to die on the cross if he was just going to select who he wanted in heaven any how, and send the rest to hell, what would be the requirements of whether or not he wanted you in heaven with Him.