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Not if you read 2 Thess. 2:3. for That day shall not come. (therapture, as you call it.) except there come a falling away first, (apostacy) and that the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition. That is 1). appostacy, 2). man of sin, 3). rapture.

"That day" is not just the rapture (as we call it), that day is "the day of Christ" (2Thess 2:2) otherwise known as "the day of the LORD", which is NOT just a single day or event (rapture) but a period of time which can encompass and overlap different prophetic events such as the rapture of the body of Christ, the Tribulation, and the Millennial reign of Jesus Christ in this earth.


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"That day" is not just the rapture (as we call it), that day is "the day of Christ" (2Thess 2:2) otherwise known as "the day of the LORD", which is NOT just a single day or event (rapture) but a period of time which can encompass and overlap different prophetic events such as the rapture of the body of Christ, the Tribulation, and the Millennial reign of Jesus Christ in this earth.

This whole thread would be very funny if you rapture/milly/tribs weren't so serious, & with such serious consequences to the Gospel & around the world, particularly to the indigenous believers.

PLEEEEEEEEZ take off your disp blinkers & read right through 1 & 2 Thessalonians.
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The way the discussion has gone so far is: can I quote a Scripture to support my belief in the rapture, etc? Is Satan in some way preparing the world for the mass disappearance of believers, while life goes on.

Paul is systematic in the 2 letters, the second to correct possible misunderstandings from his first letter. 2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

The letters were written around AD 50, 20 years before the destruction; the Gospel was spreading around the world, & unbelieving Jews were constantly opposing the Gospel & Gospel preachers. Also, believers were dying, & the question was, "where were they, & what was their hope?"

Further, what was happening to that wonderful promise of the Kingdom of God? And when would the kingdom be restored to Israel when the nation was in blatant rebellion against their Messiah?

Let's look at the Scriptures ...
1Th 1:9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;
10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

Wrath is final punishment of the wicked. There is no way believers will suffer wrath - tribulation - yes; wrath - never.

The ultimate pouring out of the wrath of God is the final judgement, but occurs from time to time through history. (Flood, Sodom, Korah, AD 70, et al.) What does Paul teach in Thes?

1Th 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1Th 2:16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

2:16 is specifically referring to AD 70.

1Th 2:14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they [have] of the Jews:
15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:
16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

That must not be taken as authorising persecution of the Jews down the ages. [As preterists are accused of saying.] The wrath of God against the generation that rejected their Messiah was very specific, & completed. Rom 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but [rather] give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance [is] mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

They are sinners like us, who need the Gospel of Jesus.

More to come.

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1Th 2:19 For what [is] our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? [Are] not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?
20 For ye are our glory and joy.

Paul has a wonderful love for his spiritual children. When I read expressions like that I feel so cold towards my fellow believers. Paul writes & prays with a wonderful & moving affection.

There will be a wonderful reunion of believers at our Lord's coming. This expression does not distinguish between "rapture" & "resurrection." Jesus is coming back, & all believers will be glorified in & by their Saviour.

1Th 3:12 And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all [men], even as we [do] toward you:
13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

What an encouragement to godly living! We will stand unblameable in holiness before God when our Lord Jesus comes, and he comes with the saints of previous generations. Again, This expression does not distinguish between "rapture" & "resurrection."

The passage 4:13 ff deals primarily with the state of the dead in Christ - fallen asleep in Jesus. When Jesus comes again, he will bring the souls of the dead for resurrection - they will rise & we will be transformed & given glorious resurrection bodies also.

1Cr 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

This is what Paul wrote to the Thessalonians also: 1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Paul is teaching that the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ is his final triumph over death - all his redeemed are resurrected & perfected, ever with the Lord. Any attempt to read a sequence of rapture/tribulation/millennium/rebellion/Gog-Magog battle is unjustified. Death is swallowed up in victory.

But, does 1 Thes. 5 teach tribulation on earth for those "left behind" following the resurrection?

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But, does 1 Thes. 5 teach tribulation on earth for those "left behind" following the resurrection?

Ch. 5 immediately follows ch. 4. Paul did not insert such breaks, nor did the KJV translators.

1Th 5:1 ¶ But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Is that day of the Lord totally separated from the coming of the Lord? It is perfectly reasonable to read ch 5 as the wrath of God against the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction at the great separation. Romans 9 continues: Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Sudden destruction is not 7 years of tribulation during which sinners, including 1/3 of the Jews, will have the opportunity to turn to God for salvation even in their desperate need. behold, now [is] the accepted time; behold, now [is] the day of salvation. They shall NOT escape.

The day Jesus comes as a thief is a day that will not (at least it shouldn't) surprise believers: 1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as [do] others; but let us watch and be sober.

We have our Lord's admonition to watch & pray which Paul echoes. We must be very careful not to read into Scripture what is not there.

Paul's teaching is that the Lord Jesus Christ will come without warning, for the resurrection of believers & the destruction of the ungodly, at the day of the Lord.

What does the 2nd letter add?

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What does the 2nd letter add?

2Th 1:6 Seeing [it is] a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

Believers are suffering tribulation at the hands of the wicked. They were in Paul's day, & they are in our day. God is judge, & those who trouble believers will suffer tribulation at the hands of God.

Does that mean a future 7 year tribulation? As we read on, we see again sudden destruction when the wicked & redeemed are separated at the coming of the Lord.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Compare that with Rev. 20, as God deals with the Satan-led rebels at the end of the millennium: Rev 20:7 ¶ And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom [is] as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

There will be no "last battle" as our enemies & God's are destroyed by fire from heaven.

I know that at this point you will have all sorts of questions about Revelation & the details of the millennium. Revelation is between the covers of my Bible, & must be understood in the same way as other Scripture - by reading in time & context, & carefully compared with related Scripture.

So far, Thessalonians gives no hint of any on-going events after our Lord Jesus comes again - the believers are resurrected & the unbelievers destroyed in flaming fire.

What does 2 Thes 2 add?

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"That day" is not just the rapture (as we call it), that day is "the day of Christ" (2Thess 2:2) otherwise known as "the day of the LORD", which is NOT just a single day or event (rapture) but a period of time which can encompass and overlap different prophetic events such as the rapture of the body of Christ, the Tribulation, and the Millennial reign of Jesus Christ in this earth.


That has to be about the dumbest thing I have heard before. the "day" is really lots of days? You know you should stop drinking or smoking whatever you are on.
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What does 2 Thes 2 add?

2Th 2:1 ¶ Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

In what way were some misunderstanding Paul's teaching? It seems that they decided to live as if the Lord's coming was imminent - perhaps within 9 months according to the woman with child so that they considered there was no need to work for a living: 2Th 3:11 For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies.

Paul tells them, No. Live your lives normally, but be ready spiritually for the Lord's return.
12 Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread.
13 But ye, brethren, be not weary in well doing.

Many JWs are still suffering from the prediction of Armageddon in 1975. They did complete their schooling, they did not buy, or sold their houses giving to the organization; they got dead end jobs so they could maximize their witnesses. Their zeal is commendable, but mistaken. Many were disillusioned & left the organization.

BUT

A great event was prophesied to take place before the day of Christ - the second coming arrives. It was to do the temple, the falling away & the man of sin.

What was the prophesied event that in AD 50 had not yet occurred? Jesus prophesied in great detail the destruction of the temple & Jerusalem, saying that This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. The churches founded by Paul were very concerned with the state of the Jewish Christians in Israel. There were several collections for them. 1,000 miles of separation did not remove that concern, just as we are concerned with our suffering brothers & sisters around the world. Hbr 13:3 Remember them that are in bonds, as bound with them; [and] them which suffer adversity, as being yourselves also in the body.

What was delaying the destruction of Jerusalem? Primarily th epresence of the believers there. The presence of just Lot in Sodom delayed its destruction. The Christians were warned when to leave; they read the signs Jesus had given, & they fled the city. 3½ years later (42 months) the city was destroyed.

2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

That understanding requires us to see the destruction as a "coming" of the Lord Jesus as distinct from the second coming. As Paul clearly implies. Jesus did say: Luk 20:16 He shall come and destroy these husbandmen, and shall give the vineyard to others. And when they heard [it], they said, God forbid.

As for UFOs & mass alien abduction, that is as much a con as the "Left Behind" scenario of Tim & Jerry. Let us hold fast to the Scriptures.

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That has to be about the dumbest thing I have heard before. the "day" is really lots of days? You know you should stop drinking or smoking whatever you are on.

Well thank you for such encouraging words my brother, it's a joy to have to participate in the forum, God bless your time here!

"The day of the Lord" like "the day of Christ" in scripture is a prophetical day and not a 24 hour period of time.

Here is an example for you to study out:

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
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Well thank you for such encouraging words my brother, it's a joy to have to participate in the forum, God bless your time here!

"The day of the Lord" like "the day of Christ" in scripture is a prophetical day and not a 24 hour period of time.

Here is an example for you to study out:

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.


You know, I think that my IQ actually just went down.
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Soj:
"That day" is not just the rapture (as we call it), that day is "the day of Christ" (2Thess 2:2) otherwise known as "the day of the LORD", which is NOT just a single day or event (rapture) but a period of time which can encompass and overlap different prophetic events such as the rapture of the body of Christ, the Tribulation, and the Millennial reign of Jesus Christ in this earth.

"The day of the Lord" like "the day of Christ" in scripture is a prophetical day and not a 24 hour period of time.

Here is an example for you to study out:

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

That is not saying " "The day of the Lord" like "the day of Christ" in scripture is a prophetical day and not a 24 hour period of time. " Look at the context:

2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as [they were] from the beginning of the creation.
.....
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

That indefinite "day" (or millennium) is the present time, the present Gospel age during which sinners have the opportunity to repent. It will come to a sudden end when the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men arrives.

10 ¶ But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
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That is not saying " "The day of the Lord" like "the day of Christ" in scripture is a prophetical day and not a 24 hour period of time. " Look at the context:

2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as [they were] from the beginning of the creation.
.....
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

That indefinite "day" (or millennium) is the present time, the present Gospel age during which sinners have the opportunity to repent. It will come to a sudden end when the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men arrives.

10 ¶ But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.



Ian, I am trying to understand your reasoning here but I am unable.

If you are saying that the day of the lord is the millenium, the present time, are you saying that the heavens have passed away, etc. Can you please explain this? as I don't understand.
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Additional reasoning in blue.




Ian, I am trying to understand your reasoning here but I am unable.

If you are saying that the day of the lord is the millenium, the present time, are you saying that the heavens have passed away, etc. No. Can you please explain this? Yes. as I don't understand.

I hope that is clear.

2Pe 3:11 [seeing] then [that] all these things shall be dissolved, what manner [of persons] ought ye to be in [all] holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
14 ¶ Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.


“For My sake, and the Gospel’s, go And tell redemption’s story”;

He comes, whose advent trumpet drowns
The last of time’s evangels,
Emmanuel crowned with many crowns,
The Lord of saints and angels;
O Life, Light, Love, the great I AM,
Triune, who changest never,
The throne of God and of the Lamb
Is Thine, and Thine forever.
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