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What difference does it make when the church was "born"? (actually, it was "before the foundations of the world")

I don't see what the significance of it is. Dr. Tom Malone says the church had its inception at Pentacost, while many agree, many others say that it was Mt. 16, where Christ said to Peter "Upon this rock I will build my church". (v.18)

(The "I will" speaks of a future time, but nothing says it looks to Pentacost)

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Ac 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Yes, the proof is very strong that Jesus' Church was started before pentcost, for there is no way they can add to what does not exist, for on that day thye had about 120 members and added about 3,000 more members.


The Origin of the Church

There are three schools of thought relative to the time the church was established, namely:
*Some say it was established in the days of Abraham.
*Others say it was established during the personal ministry of Christ.
*Still others say it was established the first Pentecost after the resurrection of Jesus.

The following are some scriptural evidences that the church did not begin in the days of Abraham, or on the day of Pentecost, but rather during Christ's earthly ministry. The church already existed before the day of Pentecost.

1. Jesus Christ said, "I will build my church" (Mat.16:18) which He did during His earthly ministry.
2. The authority of disciples was placed in the church during Christ's earthly ministry (Mat.18:15-19).
3. Jesus sang the praises of God "in the midst of the church" (Heb.2:12; Mat.26:30).
4. They had a commission to preach the Gospel before Pentecost (Mat.10:5-7).
5. They had "the keys of the kingdom of heaven", and these were given to His church (Mat.16:18-19).
6. They were baptized believers before Pentecost (Mat.3:5-6; Jn.4:1).
7. They had authority to baptize before Pentecost (Jn.4:1; Mat.28:18-20).
8. There was an ordination service before Pentecost (Mk.3:13-14).
9. There were apostles before Pentecost; and the office of apostle was a church office (Eph.4:11; I
Cor.12:28; Lk.6:12-13).
10. They had a church roll of 120 members before Pentecost (Acts1:15).
11. They had the Great Commission before Pentecost (Mat.28:18-20).
12. About 3000 were added unto His church roll on the day of Pentecost; You cannot add to something that does not already exist Acts 2:41).
13. They had a business meeting before Pentecost (Acts 1:23-26).
14. They had a church treasurer before Pentecost (Jn.13:29).
15. The ordinance of the the Lord's Supper was instituted and OBserved before Pentecost (Mat.26:26-30).


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Ac 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Yes, the proof is very strong that Jesus' Church was started before pentcost, for there is no way they can add to what does not exist, for on that day thye had about 120 members and added about 3,000 more members.


The Origin of the Church

There are three schools of thought relative to the time the church was established, namely:
*Some say it was established in the days of Abraham.
*Others say it was established during the personal ministry of Christ.
*Still others say it was established the first Pentecost after the resurrection of Jesus.

The following are some scriptural evidences that the church did not begin in the days of Abraham, or on the day of Pentecost, but rather during Christ's earthly ministry. The church already existed before the day of Pentecost.

1. Jesus Christ said, "I will build my church" (Mat.16:18) which He did during His earthly ministry.
2. The authority of disciples was placed in the church during Christ's earthly ministry (Mat.18:15-19).
3. Jesus sang the praises of God "in the midst of the church" (Heb.2:12; Mat.26:30).
4. They had a commission to preach the Gospel before Pentecost (Mat.10:5-7).
5. They had "the keys of the kingdom of heaven", and these were given to His church (Mat.16:18-19).
6. They were baptized believers before Pentecost (Mat.3:5-6; Jn.4:1).
7. They had authority to baptize before Pentecost (Jn.4:1; Mat.28:18-20).
8. There was an ordination service before Pentecost (Mk.3:13-14).
9. There were apostles before Pentecost; and the office of apostle was a church office (Eph.4:11; I
Cor.12:28; Lk.6:12-13).
10. They had a church roll of 120 members before Pentecost (Acts1:15).
11. They had the Great Commission before Pentecost (Mat.28:18-20).
12. About 3000 were added unto His church roll on the day of Pentecost; You cannot add to something that does not already exist Acts 2:41).
13. They had a business meeting before Pentecost (Acts 1:23-26).
14. They had a church treasurer before Pentecost (Jn.13:29).
15. The ordinance of the the Lord's Supper was instituted and OBserved before Pentecost (Mat.26:26-30).





I tend to agree that the Church was Established with Christ's earthly ministry and then Empowered on Pentecost. Edited by trc123
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I would interpret the OP as asking about the birth of the first physical church, and I would also agree with Jerry808 about when the first physical church began. But I would also argue that it really doesn't matter today - let's just get on with the work!

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I would interpret the OP as asking about the birth of the first physical church, and I would also agree with Jerry808 about when the first physical church began. But I would also argue that it really doesn't matter today - let's just get on with the work!


Well stated...what Mitch said! :icon_mrgreen:
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I would interpret the OP as asking about the birth of the first physical church, and I would also agree with Jerry808 about when the first physical church began. But I would also argue that it really doesn't matter today - let's just get on with the work!



Mitch, you are right, it really doesn't matter a whole lot, but there are many things that we discuss here that really make little difference. We can't be out and work all the time when we are here writing on the forum anyway!

I was asking because some preachers feel it is really important to teach when the church began. i never really knew the significance of it, but I liked Ricks answer, it started at Calvary!
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Mitch, you are right, it really doesn't matter a whole lot, but there are many things that we discuss here that really make little difference. We can't be out and work all the time when we are here writing on the forum anyway!

I was asking because some preachers feel it is really important to teach when the church began. i never really knew the significance of it, but I liked Ricks answer, it started at Calvary!


Thanks. You know, I was thinking about this, and most people either tend towards thinking about the church in either the universal church or the local church. It should be OBvious that BOTH exist, it's just that people tend to lean one way or another when they actually use the word "church".

I usually lean towards the universal church. PrOBably because I'm not a pastor of a local church. It might have something to do with the fact that I've been in several different churches all over the world, so I tend to think of us all as a whole. A pastor is going to be focusing primarily on his church and what the Lord would have him to do, so he's going to lean towards the local church.

So, perhaps it would make good discussion to ask when did the LOCAL church begin? It couldn't have been at the cross when the spiritual body of Christ was formed, because everyone was hiding out that night, not meeting together for organized worship.

I guess to understand when the local church began, which I think would make EXCELLENT discussion, we have to ask ourselves what is a local church? I don't believe it's just the whole "when two or three are gathered in my name" because a local New Testament church is supposed to have a leader, a pastor who meets all of the qualifications AND has been ordained and sent out by another church.

Anyone have any thoughts on this? I'm really curious.
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The dispensationalist believes that the church began at Pentecost, and that also began the "Age of grace". One prOBlem we fail to see is that a "dispensation refers more to a means of dealing with men than it does a time, although the time of the "fulness of times" is mentioned concerning dispensational thinking.

The word "dispensation" us strictly a New testament teaching, and is mentioned in only four places in the Bible, where some speak of "time" and others speak of "methods". I will ist them for the sake of space here, and you can look them up yourselves:

1 Cor. 9:17, where Paul speaks of a dispensation as a duty more than a time.
Eph. 1:10, where we see the time emphasized perhaps a little more than the "duty".
Eph. 4:32, where again, the "method" (Grace) is emphasized rather than the time.
and Col. 1:25, where again, the work is emphasized, and not necessarily a time period.

True, the dispensations are confined to a timeline, but we must remember that a man, and not the Lord, divided those timelines, and the doctrine rests on his findings today! To determine where one stops and another begins is a difficult task, and Clarence Larkin was merely a man with a theory; a good theory, and perhaps the only one of its kind, but nonetheless, it is a theory.

So... did the church start at Pentecost or did it not? That seems to be the crux of the matter, for the dispensationalist, at least concerning the "Age of Grace."

Edited by irishman
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I'm confused, are we talking about the local assembly church or the body of Christ here?

I'm a dispensationalist, but I'm a Bible believer first and I believe understanding dispensations is a tool to understanding the Bible, they're not the Bible in of themselves.



You are a dispensationalist? Then you must put the "dispensation of grace" as beginning at Pentecost, and ending at the rapture of the church, right? I am speaking of the church--the "called out assembly" whether local or world-wide; I believe that the body of Christ is the church made up of "True" believers everywhere, and that they are also the bride of Christ,or will be soon. The local assembly being a smaller part of the body of Christ.

I believe that the seven churches in Rev. 2 and 3 are local assemblies, made up of the body of Christ, and not different stages that the church goes through. Edited by irishman
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You are a dispensationalist? Then you must put the "dispensation of grace" as beginning at Pentecost, and ending at the rapture of the church, right? I am speaking of the church--the "called out assembly" whether local or world-wide; I believe that the body of Christ is the church made up of "True" believers everywhere, and that they are also the bride of Christ,or will be soon. The local assembly being a smaller part of the body of Christ.

I believe that the seven churches in Rev. 2 and 3 are local assemblies, made up of the body of Christ, and not different stages that the church goes through.


I'd rather call the dispensation that we're in the Church Age, because God's grace is found in all dispensations. I believe the body of Christ began at the cross, but as far as a local assembly of believers I haven't studied it out. I agree with your interpritation of the universal church. When was the first local church, as in assembly of believers? That's what I'm wondering. Yes, the church age began at Calvary and ends at the Rapture.

As far as the seven churches in Revelation, I think the application is threefold:

1. Historical. There were seven actual churches (no kidding, huh).
2. Spiritual. As a believer, what church best resembles your life? What type of church do you go to?
3. Prophetic. I think there's enough evidence found in the seven churches to tie them to seven periods of church history. Edited by Rick Schworer
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Rick, the church I go to now is a dispensational type church. My wife and I have been attending for almost two years now, (a great preacher) and have moved our membership there. The main reason I go there is that a KJB church is scarce in our area, one that truly believes the King James Bible, that is, and that took precedence over diepensationalism with me. Anyway, in the time we have been there, we have had this teaching in Sunday School, and I just don't see the practical value of it. I feel the entire two years was non-productive for the growth and edification of the body of Christ. It may, in fact, get our eyes off the second coming of Christ, and on to the anti-Christ, as most prophecy seems to do. It almost seems as if we are heaping knowledge upon knowledge, for the sake of knowledge, and not for the glory of God.

Also, if much of dispensational teaching is toward Israel, what good does it do us? I see the Old Testament as an "Introduction:" or foundation for the New era, the New Testament church, realizing of course, that Christ is the true foundation, . (Maybe "foundational" isn't the right word, but I don't know how better to describe it!) If it was mainly for Israel, then I am reading other peoples' "mail", and it is of little or no value to me. In other words, the O.T. then is easily ignored by the church, even for its historical value.

I do not see the principles taught in the seven churches as pertaining to church ages, but as growth stages, both for the church, and the individual. That, to me, is the practicality of it. Those things which you refer to as evidence of the ties to seven stages of the church, I believe could also be applied personally. I aslo realize that they are nearly the same (the growth and the stages of growth for the church), but the time factor is "iffy" to say the least. It is comparable, in my opinion, to the individual who may not grow at the same rate as another, in one area, while exceeding his peers in another.

Anyway, I also know that this is no major, salvation affecting theme, so it is not worth making an issue of. It seems that There is no solid answer, at least to me, in scripture, and therefore it remains a secondary matter. However, I think it worth discussing for the sake of those who have not yet been exposed to the teaching, so they can consider both sides.

We often, when we believe something, teach only one side of the issue, and try to refute the other side with scripture or scriptural principles; we all do it, but we often don't mean it maliciously. Perhaps that is the true value of such discussions as these.

Edited by irishman
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