Will A Man Rob God?

[Wilchbla]

A good friend of mine who is a pastor of a church in PA doesn't pass an offering plate around. He has a box in the back and if people want to give they give what they can. He rarely preaches on giving. Not only does God take care of his little church (about 60 members max) but he has been able to throw his support behind a few missionaries.

Here's his church. If you are ever in his area check it out.

http://countrychapel...om/default.aspx

Edited March 9, 2012 by Wilchbla

[Standing Firm In Christ]

SFIC, did you not read, or are you so stuck in your opinion that that is all you can see?




I highlighted in blue so that you can read it now

2Ch 31:5 And as soon as the commandment came abroad, the children of Israel brought in abundance the firstfruits of corn, wine, and oil, and honey, and of all the increase of the field; and the tithe of all things brought they in abundantly.

I think all things could possibly include money.

2Ch 31:10 And Azariah the chief priest of the house of Zadok answered him, and said, Since the people began to bring the offerings into the house of the LORD, we have had enough to eat, and have left plenty: for the LORD hath blessed his people; and that which is left is this great store.

Note that "since" the people began to bring in their offerings the priests had enough to eat, implying that they didn't before, and there was more than needed - maybe enough to support missionaries you think?

It's a principle that works because God made it work and I think that you are just being supercilious.

Sorry, but He didn't give us a principle. That is obvious by the fact that in the Old Testament not all Israelites were required to tithe. To say it is a principle is not true.

To say Abram's tithe to Melchizedek is a principle can be refuted by the fact that Abram did not tithe his own property... he tithed spoils of war. Edited March 9, 2012 by Standing Firm In Christ

[Standing Firm In Christ]

I think you are taking this to the extreme like you do with your position that people can't be saved from other versions of the bible.

It is the responsiblilty of the church to support their missionaries. We send them out we should help them out. The Mormons seem to have no problem with this. Maybe that's why they are growing while bible believing churches are shrinking.

I just can't fathom how you can't see this.

I am teaching it as it is written in the Word of God.

IF you can show me where missionaries went on deputation in the Word of God, drumming up support prior to their obedience to God to "Go" I will accept it.

As of yet, none have been able to prove me wrong.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

I think you are taking this to the extreme like you do with your position that people can't be saved from other versions of the bible.

It is the responsiblilty of the church to support their missionaries. We send them out we should help them out. The Mormons seem to have no problem with this. Maybe that's why they are growing while bible believing churches are shrinking.

I just can't fathom how you can't see this.

One who uses lying or sinful Christ in an attempt to convert someone will only deceive that person.

[Guest]

I have not used any verses out of context.

It is clear, however, that you have.

Romans 12 has nothing whatsoever with the unbiblical practice of begging for support money.

As I said previously, Where God guides, God provides. If one feels that one has to beg money to go out in the mission field before answering a call from God, it shows one of two things...

1. Either God has not called that one to the mission field
or
2. God has called, but that one doesn't have faith that God provides for those He calls.

It is a disgrace to beg others to support you if God told you to go into the mission field. If God told you to go, He will also tell others to assist if necessary, He never tells one to beg for money.

Your wrong about Romans 12, these saints who have a need to go on the mission field are letting that need be known to the church. No Christian is under an obligation to provide for that need. It is an opportunity, "without dissimulation...with brotherly love...distributing to the necessity of saints...;" In this case God has provided an opportunity through the missionary saints to share in their sacrifice of love.

The disgrace is that these folks have to come seeking support from fellow Christians at all. Christians should be looking for someone wanting to take the Gospel of Jesus Christ to a foreign nation. It would appear God has sent a test to Christians.

[John81]

to several of you posting against missionaries recieving support, you need to do an honest study of the phrase "brought forward" in our Bible.
You guys are so far out of line with the word of God that I can't even follow your logic. And you're also stuck in Kingdom passages that have nada to do with the church of Christ which is His body. No scrip,?? Seriously? You'd toss that out there and not blush?

God bless,
calvary
(try starting with 3 John and help me understand what "taking nothing from the gentiles" means)

This thread is so convoluted I'm not following it completly so I don't know who you are referring to.

So, speaking just for myself, I've never said missionaries shouldn't be supported. What I've said is the way many are supported today is contrary to how it should be. Why should missionaries have to waste time and money touring church after church, trying to build up emotions so the church will give them support instead of someone else who is also begging for help?

The examples we see in the New Testament show churches willingly taking up collections and sending support to missionaries without the missionaries leaving the field, spending weeks or months pleading with many churches for help.

We also see that when missionaries went forth they did so in obedience to God's call and with no earthly promise of support from anyone. The missionaries went forth, trusting God would provide, whether that meant only their most basic needs would be met or they would at some time have well beyond that, they went.

I absolutely believe in supporting missionaries. We personally help a missionary in India and we also help support others through our church. Our church supports these missionaries withour requiring them to come to our church, put on a presentation and then plead for our continued support. Unless the Lord leads otherwise, the missionaries our church supports know they will recieve a certain amount of help from us on a regular basis.

[John81]

Missionaries would not need to "drum" up support if believers gave their 10%!!! Even if it isn't NT bible doctrine to give 10%, if EVERY believer gave 10% there would be more than enough to go around. I stopped my studies because the fact is, regardless of what anyone says, GOD DOES NOT DEPOSIT A SALARY INTO YOUR ACCOUNT AT THE END OF EVERY MONTH!! He gave us a principle to work with in order to support His work.
Every KJV only church I have ever seen that preaches sound doctrine in TRUTH is small with barely enough to support a pastor, never mind missionaries. I don't know what it's like in other countries, but that's the case here. I need to work to put food on the table, every man needs to work to feed his family, so why do most not regard a pastors calling as "WORK" and as such begrudge their earning a decent wage? Also, why must most bible students go through years of borderline poverty, before they "EARN" the right to a pathetic pittance from the church? Even apprentices earn more!!

Actually, the truth of the matter is that if believers actually gave in accord with how the New Testament says Christians are to give, the local church would be fully funded, missionaries would be supported, the poor, widows and orphans would be helped.

Thus far, I've never seen a church that teaches New Testament giving which wasn't fully supported and funded. Meanwhile, there are tithe preaching churches all around that are continually lakcing in funding and continually pleading with their congregation to tithe.

Following the New Testament model, believers typically give well beyond what those who are taught the tithe do. The reason is that the main factor which is to influence Christian giving is our submission to Christ as Lord of our lives. If we submit our selfish nature to Him and give in accord with His leading, then we will give abundantly.

While I see many who proclaim the tithe living large and well above many others, I don't see that with those who actually obey the New Testament in giving.

The tithe was a specific command for OT Jews, mostly for the support of the temple system. It should be very clear why that is no longer necessary and why God didn't add such a requirment for Christians under the New Testament. Chrisitans are called to a much higher calling. It's odd that some want to shackle Christians to a baser, legalistic calling ordained for the upkeep of the temple system.

[Guest]

Missionaries would not need to "drum" up support if believers gave their 10%!!! Even if it isn't NT bible doctrine to give 10%, if EVERY believer gave 10% there would be more than enough to go around. I stopped my studies because the fact is, regardless of what anyone says, GOD DOES NOT DEPOSIT A SALARY INTO YOUR ACCOUNT AT THE END OF EVERY MONTH!! He gave us a principle to work with in order to support His work.
Every KJV only church I have ever seen that preaches sound doctrine in TRUTH is small with barely enough to support a pastor, never mind missionaries. I don't know what it's like in other countries, but that's the case here. I need to work to put food on the table, every man needs to work to feed his family, so why do most not regard a pastors calling as "WORK" and as such begrudge their earning a decent wage? Also, why must most bible students go through years of borderline poverty, before they "EARN" the right to a pathetic pittance from the church? Even apprentices earn more!!

Because, when it comes to dollars out of pocket...
Matthew 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

They still don't get it, John.

I reckon it is because it is not given for them to know.

And because they don't know, they falsely accuse us of not having love.

Edited March 9, 2012 by Standing Firm In Christ

[Standing Firm In Christ]

God: Didn't I tell you to go to Zimbabwe and preach the Gospel to the lost tribes there?
Man: Yes, Lord, but I just could not get enough support.

God: Didn't I promise to supply all your need?
Man: Yes, Lord, but I wasn't going to just up and leave without knowing I could survive over there.

God: When ye go, take neither scrip, nor money for your purse.
Man: But God, you know it doesn't work like that!

Edited March 9, 2012 by Standing Firm In Christ

[2Tim215]

God: Didn't I tell you to go to Zimbabwe and preach the Gospel to the lost tribes there?
Man: Yes, Lord, but I just could not get enough support.

God: Didn't I promise to supply all your need?
Man: Yes, Lord, but I wasn't going to just up and leave without knowing I could survive over there.

LOL

Have you ever done this? Stepped out "in faith" and God supplied ALL your needs? I have and fell flat on my Balaams talking ass. And don't tell me that my faith wasn't sufficient or I wasn't called, etc. God is not some magical Wizard that turns lead into gold (though I know He can) whenever His people need financial or any other support. He relies on the work of His people to support His work in this world. If His people don't supply the needs of His workers He is not going to suddenly start dropping manna from heaven again. The Jew required a sign we have wisdom - His Word - He has given us enough wisdom to use our brains to realize that without the financial assistance of believers and churches, pastors and missionaries would never be, regardless on whether it's OT 10% giving or NT giving.

Making an issue out of those that use the OT 10% tithe as an example in relation to NT giving with a thankful heart is just being petty. The reality is that the modern church has abused the whole finances issue because we live in a capitalist society where believers debt and desire to have more outweighs their ability and desire to give. This has left a shortfall where pastors that have had moments of weakness (or greed) have had to use scripture to exhort money. I think that you have a cold heart and have forgotten your first love. That you pick on finer points of doctrine to a point where you can't even see the truth anymore.

I leave you with these verses and hope and pray that you find in your heart the love and charity that Paul speaks of, that you show some charity instead of the sarcasm and enmity often seen in your replies.


1Ti 1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.
1Ti 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
1Ti 1:6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
1Ti 1:7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
1Ti 1:8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
1Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
1Ti 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

Col 3:14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.
Col 3:15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.
Col 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
Col 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

1Co 8:1 Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.

1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

[Guest]

God: Didn't I tell you to go to Zimbabwe and preach the Gospel to the lost tribes there?
Man: Yes, Lord, but I just could not get enough support.

God: Didn't I promise to supply all your need?
Man: Yes, Lord, but I wasn't going to just up and leave without knowing I could survive over there.

God: When ye go, take neither scrip, nor money for your purse.
Man: But God, you know it doesn't work like that!

I see you're still avoiding my post(s) to you. That's OK, no answer is in itself an answer.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Where God guides, God provides.

There is not one instance of man being sent by God in the Bible where he went begging money so that he could obey God.

Yet, in our modern society of decreasing faith, those who hear a command from God to "Go" (or is it their flesh that wants to go because of some message given by man?) God is out of the picture once the man hears the command. From then on, they look to man for their need, not trusting God to supply their need (Matthew 6:33)

Paul never begged as these modern day missionaries do. Paul went in faith. And yes, God did supply. In Philippians, we read that he was sent provision, not because he had desired it, but because the people out of their love for the Gospel sent it.

man does not have to beg for support. If God wants that man in the mission field, God will lay it on anothers heart to send if there is need.

Our modern day missionaries nowhere follow the examples of their biblical predecessors when it comes to faith in God to supply their need.

Edited March 9, 2012 by Standing Firm In Christ

[Standing Firm In Christ]

What is the example of the OT tithe, 2Tim? Tell us. Is it....

Abram's tithe of the spoils of war to an established king of a cursed people?

If so, then we should only tithe the spoils of war as Abram's alleged example.

or is it...

The tithe established by the OT Law?

If so, then who is required to tithe? In the Law, only farmers and herders were required to tithe. No other tradesmen or merchant were required to tithe. So tell us, which occupation is supposed to give 10% today? If we are to follow the OT Law tithe?

And who do we tithe to? A High Priest such as Melchizedek? Where do we find such an High Priest? Tell me the geographical location that Jesus is at on this earth right now and I will make arrangements to go ask Him if I am to bring a tithe to Him. After all, according to the Word of God He is our High Priest, is He not?

Or do we follow the OT Law and take our tithe to a Levite? There are plenty of Cohen's, Levington's, Silversteins, Goldbergs, etc. that I can go take a tithe to. But I am quite sure if they are of God they will tell me they are not authorized to receive a tithe of money, but rather tithes of crops, flocks and herds.

At any rate, there is no such doctrine in the Bible as "bring your tithes of money to the local assembly."

[Standing Firm In Christ]

I see you're still avoiding my post(s) to you. That's OK, no answer is in itself an answer.

I see you are still avoiding the facts.