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"Who will have all men to be saved"


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1 Timothy 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of
God our Saviour;
4Who will have all men to be saved,
and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man
Christ Jesus;
6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Edited by heartstrings
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1 Timothy 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of
God our Saviour;
4Who will have all men to be saved,
and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man
Christ Jesus;
6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

I'm going to deliberately misquote the 4th verse. Watch for the error.

"Who will save all men."

No, God is not going to save all men, though it be His will that all be saved.

The Bible's plan of salvation contains the element of decision. In other words, the Bible's God is not like Neanderthals who went about kidnapping women to marry them while caring nothing about how the girls might feel about it. God is unwilling that any should perish, yes; however, it is not His decision to make. It is the sinner's decision.

†. Ezk 18:23 . . Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

In the book of Revelation is depicted a scene from the future which John actually saw for himself. In the scene, people are thrown into a reservoir of liquefied flame from which there is no return. The reason there is no return is because the reservoir is clearly labeled a second death (Rev 2:11, Rev 20:6, Rev 20:11-15). That is very important to note because there is only one resurrection allotted per person.

†. Dan 12:2 . . And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

†. John 5:28-29 . . Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

I once heard of a preacher who was asked by an inquiring mind what one would have to do to go to Hell. He responded: You don’t have to do anything; just bide your time: Hell is the default.

†. John 3:14-15 . . And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

In Num 21:5-9, the people of Israel became weary of eating manna all the time at every meal. But instead of courteously, and diplomatically, petitioning their Lord and Master for a different diet, they became hostile and confrontational, angrily demanding better food. In reply; The Lord sent a swarm of poisonous vipers among them; which began biting and killing people; and every bite was 100% fatal, no exceptions. Then the people realized their mistake and asked Moses to intercede. In reply; The Lord instructed Moses to construct an effigy of the vipers and hoist it up on a pole in plain view so that everyone dying from venom could look upon the effigy for relief.

†. 2Cor 5:14 . . we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead

The Bible's Jesus did indeed die for all; because all are literally dead men walking.

†. Isa 53:6 . . All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned everyone to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

†. 1John 2:2 . . He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

However, the Lord's cross is much like that serpentary effigy in that dead men walking must look to it for relief. Within the context of John 3:14-18, those who fail to look to Jesus' crucifixion to protect themselves from the wrath of God are already condemned to death, no waiting period. So that death in the reservoir isn't the option, no, it's the default— life is the option, and according to Jesus, the majority have not been OBtaining it.

†. Luke 13:23-24 . . Then said one unto him: Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them: Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

†. Matt 7:13-14 . . Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

†. Mtt 22:14 . .For many are invited, but few are chosen.

The million dollar question is: Who gets chosen? Answer: Those who look to the cross for safety from the wrath of God. The rest are in line for the reservoir of liquefied flame even before they cross over to the other side.

†. John 3:16-18 . . For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not His son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten son of God.

C.L.I.F.F.
/ Edited by Webers_Home
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If we are followers of Christ we should walk so close to Christ, OBeying His Word in all things, that others see Christ in us.

Followers of Christ are to be involved in spreading the Gospel and making disciples, true followers of Christ, not just professed converts.

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I'm going to deliberately misquote the 4th verse. Watch for the error.

"Who will save all men."

No, God is not going to save all men, though it be His will that all be saved.

The Bible's plan of salvation contains the element of decision. In other words, the Bible's God is not like Neanderthals who went about kidnapping women to marry them while caring nothing about how the girls might feel about it. God is unwilling that any should perish, yes; however, it is not His decision to make. It is the sinner's decision.

†. Ezk 18:23 . . Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

In the book of Revelation is depicted a scene from the future which John actually saw for himself. In the scene, people are thrown into a reservoir of liquefied flame from which there is no return. The reason there is no return is because the reservoir is clearly labeled a second death (Rev 2:11, Rev 20:6, Rev 20:11-15). That is very important to note because there is only one resurrection allotted per person.

†. Dan 12:2 . . And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

†. John 5:28-29 . . Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

I once heard of a preacher who was asked by an inquiring mind what one would have to do to go to Hell. He responded: You don’t have to do anything; just bide your time: Hell is the default.

†. John 3:14-15 . . And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

In Num 21:5-9, the people of Israel became weary of eating manna all the time at every meal. But instead of courteously, and diplomatically, petitioning their Lord and Master for a different diet, they became hostile and confrontational, angrily demanding better food. In reply; The Lord sent a swarm of poisonous vipers among them; which began biting and killing people; and every bite was 100% fatal, no exceptions. Then the people realized their mistake and asked Moses to intercede. In reply; The Lord instructed Moses to construct an effigy of the vipers and hoist it up on a pole in plain view so that everyone dying from venom could look upon the effigy for relief.

†. 2Cor 5:14 . . we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead

The Bible's Jesus did indeed die for all; because all are literally dead men walking.

†. Isa 53:6 . . All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned everyone to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

†. 1John 2:2 . . He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

However, the Lord's cross is much like that serpentary effigy in that dead men walking must look to it for relief. Within the context of John 3:14-18, those who fail to look to Jesus' crucifixion to protect themselves from the wrath of God are already condemned to death, no waiting period. So that death in the reservoir isn't the option, no, it's the default— life is the option, and according to Jesus, the majority have not been OBtaining it.

†. Luke 13:23-24 . . Then said one unto him: Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them: Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

†. Matt 7:13-14 . . Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

†. Mtt 22:14 . .For many are invited, but few are chosen.

The million dollar question is: Who gets chosen? Answer: Those who look to the cross for safety from the wrath of God. The rest are in line for the reservoir of liquefied flame even before they cross over to the other side.

†. John 3:16-18 . . For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not His son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten son of God.

C.L.I.F.F.
/


Correct....all men are not going to be saved. But it is, nevertheless, God's WILL that all be saved.
This thread was intiated as a refutation of Calvinism.
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This thread was intiated as a refutation of Calvinism.


You didn't even need to mention that as most threads you begin are for that purpose. Hasn't this horse been beaten to death already? I've not noticed any pro-Calvinism posts in some time now so what's the point of yet another thread in addition to the dozens already there that say the same thing?
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You didn't even need to mention that as most threads you begin are for that purpose. Hasn't this horse been beaten to death already? I've not noticed any pro-Calvinism posts in some time now so what's the point of yet another thread in addition to the dozens already there that say the same thing?


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Thank you for the link. That topic was begun a few days ago and as the OP states was put forth for those who wish to discuss the merits of the linked article. I've not yet read that entire article so I've not commented.

That thread was not put forth as a pro-Calvinism thread, but as for the stated purpose of discussing the linked article.

Heartstrings, I would very much like to read your comments regarding that article within that thread as perhaps we could learn more.

This particular thread is simply more of what you have posted in a dozen or so other threads. There is nothing wrong with what you are putting forth, but if you wish to continue with the same postings why not bump up one of the many existing threads rather than starting another?

Better yet (hopefully) might be to consider the other thread with an article that hasn't been addressed and the OP says puts things in a different or better manner than what some have tried to put forth before.

As I've stated, I for one would look forward to reading what you have to say regarding the article in that thread. If such were to occur before I have finished the article (I haven't got far at all) I would be prompted to carve out more time to read it.



(Weber and Cooper have proven to be loons, with their ideas it's okay to beat ones wife into submission, that women have to bear children to be saved, and men can undress other mens wives with their eyes and have erotic fantasies and it's not sin. I don't think anyone who has read their unbiblical postings take them seriously or give weight or attention to their postings)
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No thanks. I've read enough. I even sat through a few of his sermons as my former pastor was downloading and reading Piper's sermons off practically word for word. I discovered this by accident one Sunday, and after praying for several sleepless nights, simply asked him about it. He got defensive and belligerent about it, then started accusing me. I believe Piper is a highly educated false teacher and I would beware if I were you. If you are a sheep, you should know when the voice isn't right.

Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

John 10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

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No thanks. I've read enough. I even sat through a few of his sermons as my former pastor was downloading and reading Piper's sermons off practically word for word. I discovered this by accident one Sunday, and after praying for several sleepless nights, simply asked him about it. He got defensive and belligerent about it, then started accusing me. I believe Piper is a highly educated false teacher and I would beware if I were you. If you are a sheep, you should know when the voice isn't right.

Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

John 10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.


Understood. I never even noticed who the article was written by until you mentioned this so I went and checked and I do see it is by Piper.

The only thing I know about Piper is I hear him quoted a lot and it seems folks either love him or hate him. I've never heard him preach or read any of his books.

Adrian Rogers was against the teaching of Calvinism yet he praised Calvins major work, calling it one of the best ever put forth. I thought that was interesting when I learned of it.

Anyway, thanks for taking the time to share your input on this. :thumb:
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Correct....all men are not going to be saved. But it is, nevertheless, God's WILL that all be saved. This thread was intiated as a refutation of Calvinism.

Well, I had no idea it was a refutation of Calvanism because you didn't include a statement to that effect. In point of fact, because of your strong emphasis on verse 4; I assumed you were a universalist.

It was not my intention to refute any of the so-called five points of Calvanism but rather to refute universalism's philosophy that (1) everybody is God's kin, and (2) nOBody goes to a Hell.

1Tim 2:4-6 is one of their favorite "proof" texts. Ironically, though the universalists with whom I've dialogued believe their proof texts to be Spirit-fathered, they insist that the remainder of the Bible is not, and therefore cannot be trusted. One of their ilk even insisted that the only portion of the entire Bible that's Spirit-fathered are the four Gospels!

(chuckle) He really painted himself into a corner with that position since the gospel of John states quite clearly, and without ambiguity, that it's necessary to undergo a second birth as per John 1:12-13 and John 3:3-8 in order to OBtain the right to a place around the table in God's home as His lawful kin.

C.L.I.F.F.
/
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Well, it's pretty simple. If you like Calvin, you will like Piper, if you hate Calvin, you will hate Piper. Being more on the Reformed side myself, I like Piper. I don't idolize him or agree with him on everything though. Just a disclaimer in case anyone wants to accuse me of being yet another Piper fanboy.

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I would like to note one thing though, heartstrings, it is foolish to attempt to refute someone before hearing them out. I have been fair and read relevant articles posted by the non-reformed side, but you refuse to read anything I put forth. To have any meaningful discussion, both sides should hear each other out. Honestly, this attitude by the non-reformed drives those with the opposing view further into reformed theology because the reformed are usually more calm and patient when discussing this issue - a more Christian attitude if you ask me. If you truly cared about the reformed, you would hear them out. Only then would you know how to help them if you believe they need help. This begs the following question then: do you sincerely care about about the reformed, or do you just push those away who you can't sway with your arguments?

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