Deuteronomy 22:5

[Brother Rick]

Well, we can all certainly agree that the Bible commands women to be modest. My wife does wear pants, though very rarely, and if someone were to say that she's wicked or ungoldly for wearing modest pants the only thing it would prove was how much of a moron they were.

Anyways, back to what we can agree on, which is modesty. If you're a lady here and you wear pants and want a little help in the area of modesty, I'd encourage you to check out an article she wrote on the subject. It's not about whether pants are ok or not, it's about the best way to find modest pants, even though the best way to go is to find a modest skirt (I can't tell you how many women I've seen who think pants are wicked but they dress immodestly with their skirts). It's written by a lady, for ladies.

Here's the article

By the way, if anyone so much as hints at the idea that my wife is not a lady or that she's wicked for wearing pants, I'll charitably reach through your computer sceen, slap you across the face, pound you into a little ball, and toss you into a trash can with my magical powers. Consider yourself warned.

Edited September 3, 2010 by Rick Schworer

[Bro K]

Well, we can all certainly agree that the Bible commands women to be modest. My wife does wear pants, though very rarely, and if someone were to say that she's wicked or ungoldly for wearing modest pants the only thing it would prove was how much of a moron they were.

Anyways, back to what we can agree on, which is modesty. If you're a lady here and you wear pants and want a little help in the area of modesty, I'd encourage you to check out an article she wrote on the subject. It's not about whether pants are ok or not, it's about the best way to find modest pants, even though the best way to go is to find a modest skirt (I can't tell you how many women I've seen who think pants are wicked but they dress immodestly with their skirts). It's written by a lady, for ladies.

Here's the article

By the way, if anyone so much as hints at the idea that my wife is not a lady or that she's wicked for wearing pants, I'll charitably reach through your computer sceen, slap you across the face, pound you into a little ball, and toss you into a trash can with my magical powers. Consider yourself warned.

Just for the record: My wife also wears pants.

[OFIB Preacher]

"Some good points here. God's Word applies to everyone today just as it applied to everyone back then and in between. God was well aware of different clothing styles around the world past, present and future."

Yes the Word does apply to everyone. However, II Tim 2:15 tells us to rightly divide the word of truth.

Yes Sir and that's what we're doing! See ya in a few days!

[OFIB Preacher]

Well, we can all certainly agree that the Bible commands women to be modest. My wife does wear pants, though very rarely, and if someone were to say that she's wicked or ungoldly for wearing modest pants the only thing it would prove was how much of a moron they were.

Anyways, back to what we can agree on, which is modesty. If you're a lady here and you wear pants and want a little help in the area of modesty, I'd encourage you to check out an article she wrote on the subject. It's not about whether pants are ok or not, it's about the best way to find modest pants, even though the best way to go is to find a modest skirt (I can't tell you how many women I've seen who think pants are wicked but they dress immodestly with their skirts). It's written by a lady, for ladies.

Here's the article

By the way, if anyone so much as hints at the idea that my wife is not a lady or that she's wicked for wearing pants, I'll charitably reach through your computer sceen, slap you across the face, pound you into a little ball, and toss you into a trash can with my magical powers. Consider yourself warned.

"Modest pants?"

[John81]

"Modest pants?"

I've heard some people talk about them but I've not yet actually seen any.

[OFIB Preacher]

I've heard some people talk about them but I've not yet actually seen any.

Ya know, I haven't either!

[Bro K]

Yes Sir and that's what we're doing! See ya in a few days!

The point is that God gave certain guidance to certain people/nations at certain times in history. Those commandments that God gave Israel (ie; Dietary laws, temple worship. giving of offerings, punishment for certain crimes/sins, etc) were for them and them only. Sure, we can discover certain attributes of God from his dealing with Israel; but we are not under law to OBey those commandments as they were. Bible states that when one was guilty of one of the laws; he was guilty of all the Law. God dealt with the Israelite primarily as a nation; He deals with us as individuals. We need to be careful about mingling Law and Grace. The VAST majority of false religions and cults builds their doctrines on OT scripture which is overwhelming the Law (of Moses).

[OFIB Preacher]

The point is that God gave certain guidance to certain people/nations at certain times in history. Those commandments that God gave Israel (ie; Dietary laws, temple worship. giving of offerings, punishment for certain crimes/sins, etc) were for them and them only. Sure, we can discover certain attributes of God from his dealing with Israel; but we are not under law to OBey those commandments as they were. Bible states that when one was guilty of one of the laws; he was guilty of all the Law. God dealt with the Israelite primarily as a nation; He deals with us as individuals. We need to be careful about mingling Law and Grace. The VAST majority of false religions and cults builds their doctrines on OT scripture which is overwhelming the Law (of Moses).

We're not talking about that here! In case you forgot the topic, here it is!

Deut. 22:5 The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.

Who can argue with scripture? Apparently, lots of people who are abomination unto the LORD! The way I understand it, taking the scripture as it is, not only is what the person doing, abomination, but the person who does this, is abomination unto the LORD! Said person (whether a man waring a woman's garment, or v/v,) needs to repent, confess and forsake such wickedness and live holy unto the LORD! They can do so, if they'll just take the King James Bible as it is and not try to find a way around it, to live their wicked ways! Don't think I've heard much about that part, in these pages!

[JerryNumbers]

The point is that God gave certain guidance to certain people/nations at certain times in history. Those commandments that God gave Israel (ie; Dietary laws, temple worship. giving of offerings, punishment for certain crimes/sins, etc) were for them and them only. Sure, we can discover certain attributes of God from his dealing with Israel; but we are not under law to OBey those commandments as they were. Bible states that when one was guilty of one of the laws; he was guilty of all the Law. God dealt with the Israelite primarily as a nation; He deals with us as individuals. We need to be careful about mingling Law and Grace. The VAST majority of false religions and cults builds their doctrines on OT scripture which is overwhelming the Law (of Moses).

The thing is, women are not to wear that which pertains to man, that is a moral law, its just as valid today, as it was in that day. Don''t you see, what was a sin and an abomination in those days, is a sin and an abomination today.

[Brother Rick]

I've heard some people talk about them but I've not yet actually seen any.

[John81]

We're not talking about that here! In case you forgot the topic, here it is!

Deut. 22:5 The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.

And the real question to ask is: WHY argue with Scripture?

[John81]

I'm not sure of the point of these pictures. Are these examples of the immodest nature of pants or are these supposed to be pants some call modest?

[Brother Rick]

I'm not sure of the point of these pictures. Are these examples of the immodest nature of pants or are these supposed to be pants some call modest?

You understood exactly what I meant, you're just being sarcastic and condescending.

I'd really not rather bother to explain why trouser cut woman's pants and jeans are much more modest than many of skirts and culottes that ladies wear who are married to men who forbid their wives from wearing "britches", I have better and more productive and interesting things to do then go around telling other men what their wives can and can't wear based upon a single isolated verse in Deuteronomy that talks specifically about dressing in drag, not specifically about what dressing in drag is and leaves that up to you and the Holy Spirit to work out.

In fact, if I were so bold as to tell a man what his wife could and couldn't wear, I would encourage them to look in the New Testament where multiple time the emphasis is put on modesty. Also, if I found myself in a situation where someone was looking to me for advice on what to wear, I'd send them to my wife, who is a modest lady, for help. We've been there, done that, and made a difference in the lives of some young ladies in this area. The difference wasn't made by telling them that wearing pants is equivalent to dressing in drag, my wife made a difference in their lives by putting the emphasis where God puts the emphasis, and that is on modesty.

[John81]

You understood exactly what I meant, you're just being sarcastic and condescending.

I'd really not rather bother to explain why trouser cut woman's pants and jeans are much more modest than many of skirts and culottes that ladies wear who are married to men who forbid their wives from wearing "britches", I have better and more productive and interesting things to do then go around telling other men what their wives can and can't wear based upon a single isolated verse in Deuteronomy that talks specifically about dressing in drag, not specifically about what dressing in drag is and leaves that up to you and the Holy Spirit to work out.

In fact, if I were so bold as to tell a man what his wife could and couldn't wear, I would encourage them to look in the New Testament where multiple time the emphasis is put on modesty. Also, if I found myself in a situation where someone was looking to me for advice on what to wear, I'd send them to my wife, who is a modest lady, for help. We've been there, done that, and made a difference in the lives of some young ladies in this area. The difference wasn't made by telling them that wearing pants is equivalent to dressing in drag, my wife made a difference in their lives by putting the emphasis where God puts the emphasis, and that is on modesty.

I have no idea why you approached this in such a manner. Had I been being sarcastic I would have tried to make such clear and I wouldn't be condescending towards you. My question was sincere.

My question had nothing to do with your wife so there was absolutely no intent to say anything against your wife. While I don't know your wife, I've read many of her writings and it seems OBvious to me she's my sister in Christ. Oddly enough, your wife reminds me of my wife when she was younger. Her hair is styled just like my wife wore hers way back when we first met and she had a zeal for the Lord I detect in your wife's writings.

In any event, back to Scripture, we are told not to wear the other sexes clothing and we are told to dress modestly. Myself, I've never seen a pair of pants on a woman that looked modest. To be clear, that's just a statement of personal OBservation and not intended to try and tell you or your wife how to dress, nor is it meant to be disparaging, sarcastic or condescending.

[Brother Rick]

I have no idea why you approached this in such a manner. Had I been being sarcastic I would have tried to make such clear and I wouldn't be condescending towards you. My question was sincere.

I sincerely apologize, I assumed you knew what side of the discussion I was on, and the fact that I posted those pictures in response to you claiming you had never seen a modest pair of pants, which, in turn, was a response to OFIB saying "modest pants?". I'm young, and sometimes a little quick to judge and speak, sorry. I know sometimes I say things that are a little too cutting, I've gotten a lot better over time and the Lord is still working on me about that. However, for what it's worth, I never presumed you said anything bad about my wife and I appreciate that, as well as the kind words.

As far as scripture goes, I believe modesty is the emphasis in the New Testament. I'm not so dispensational that I toss out anything in the Old Testament, so I believe Duet. 22:5 can and does have an application today. I try to put the emphasis on the weight of scripture, and what is evidently clear in those scriptures. God mentions this thing only once, and while He has strong words about it He doesn't bother to mention it again in the New Testament.

Once again, that doesn't mean I discount it, it simply means I believe we should put the same emphasis on it that God does. When the subject of women's clothing comes up, the first thing to emphasis is the principle of modesty because that is where God puts the emphasis. In these areas, I believe it is best for the elder women to teach the younger. It is an imbalance to take a young lady who wants to learn about living for the Lord and take her straight to Duet 22:5 BEFORE going to the several verses in the New Testament that speak on modesty. That was the main gist of my point. I've seen what happens when preachers focus on preaching against pants and not against immodesty. You get a church full of immodest women who only wear skirts and culottes. That is, like I said, being imbalanced and not preaching/teaching the whole council of God. The emphasis needs to be wear (did you just catch that pun? ) God puts it.

Secondarily, I believe in interpreting scripture based upon what is clear in the passage. What is clear in the passage is that God doesn't want women dressing like men, and men dressing like women. The most OBvious example that I think we'd all agree on is that this means dressing in drag. If a person wants to take it further than that, that is fine, so long as they don't create a doctrine out of it and begin unscripturally pounding people over the head with it.

There are five types of standards:

1. Scriptural standards. Those are the ones found clear cut in the Bible. They should be the same for everyone.

2. Spiritual standards. Those are the ones that the Holy Spirit leads you towards and may not be the same for everyone, though people shouldn't use this one as an excuse to never listen to the Holy Spirit. An example of this is Paul being told by the Holy Spirit to go to Macedonia. God told HIM to go, it was something only for Paul.

3. Natural standards. "Doth not nature itself teach you that it is a shame for a man to have long hair?" The Bible and the Holy Spirit don't have to tell you this, you should just know it on your own.

4. Personal standards. Nature didn't tell you this, the Bible didn't tell you this, and the Holy Spirit didn't tell you this. You, on your own, decided to do something or stop doing something to live a more separated life. THIS IS A GOOD THING.

5. Stupid standards. I met a missionary once who thought he was more holy for not eating ice cream. Need I say more?

Abstaining from dressing in drag is a scriptural standard. Being modest is a scriptural standard. Taking it beyond that and believing in your heart is that it is a sin for a woman to wear pants is either a spiritual standard or a personal standard.

That's why I don't spend a lot of time on it. Edited September 4, 2010 by Rick Schworer