Discussion Topic - Does God Love Everybody?

[heartstrings]

I stayed out of this topic for a while because I haven't figured it out yet myself, but I just would have to say I disagree with that last statement Jerry. All the good we do on our own without God is done out of selfish motives, making it a lie and still sin (for whatsoever is not of faith is sin - Romans 14:23b). And even then, any good that comes out of anything we do, evil or good, is only a result of God's grace. I believe there is absolutely NOTHING good in us apart from God (For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing - Romans 7:18a).

Yes, you're right. There is nothing good in us.


Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Deuteronomy 3:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:


Mark 10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him,....
22And he......went away grieved: for he had great possessions. Edited July 26, 2010 by heartstrings

[HappyChristian]

I stayed out of this topic for a while because I haven't figured it out yet myself, but I just would have to say I disagree with that last statement Jerry. All the good we do on our own without God is done out of selfish motives, making it a lie and still sin (for whatsoever is not of faith is sin - Romans 14:23b). And even then, any good that comes out of anything we do, evil or good, is only a result of God's grace. I believe there is absolutely NOTHING good in us apart from God (For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing - Romans 7:18a).

Just a thought here, but I think Jerry was prOBably referencing the fact that there are unsaved people who are nice and are kind. His final statement that none is good enough to go to heaven would seem to indicate to me that he wasn't actually saying that we can do good apart from God. We would all have to admit that there are unsaved people who are outstanding in their kindness and their treatment of others. Although still unsaved.
~~~~~~~
The Bible says that God is angry with the wicked every day. But the Bible also says that "God so loved the WORLD..." He certainly wasn't talking about the earth, and there is no mention of a select few in that world that He loved. Just that He loved the world. *shrugs* Call me a simpleton, but I think that verse alone answers the question. Heart has posted a number of verses that support it, as well.

[JerryNumbers]

I stayed out of this topic for a while because I haven't figured it out yet myself, but I just would have to say I disagree with that last statement Jerry. All the good we do on our own without God is done out of selfish motives, making it a lie and still sin (for whatsoever is not of faith is sin - Romans 14:23b). And even then, any good that comes out of anything we do, evil or good, is only a result of God's grace. I believe there is absolutely NOTHING good in us apart from God (For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing - Romans 7:18a).

What part do you really disagree with?

>>>My statement:
"Even in the most evil man, there can be found some good, kindness, yet no man can be good enough to go to heaven one his own merits."<<<


"Even in the most evil man, there can be found some good, kindness?"

Or

"...no man can be good enough to go to heaven one his own merits?"


Notice closely, I never stated good works will get a person into heaven, in fact I stated the very opposite, why accuse me of saying differently?

I did say that in most evil people, you will find some goodness.


Lu 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

Have you ever noticed that even many evil people will give good gifts unto their children and friends?

[TMAC]

I am amazed once again at some of the unscriptural claims Calvinist make! It is very sad.
Joel, I know you did not answer my last questions on the last thread you and I discussed. Perhaps the questions challenged your beliefs too much. I do not know. (I would still love to see you provide answers to them so we could continue that discussion.)

Let me ask you some more on this topic you started.

Here is a verse brought up earlier, but overlooked, in this discussion: (Mar 10:21) "Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me."


Joel
Questions:
Is this rich man lost or saved in context? Yes/No
Is he "wholly evil"? Yes/No
Did Jesus love him? Yes/No


Additional question on this point in general:
Should a son/daughter love his parents and family? Yes/No
(This question will lead to others in hopes of understanding "hatred" in relation to love.)

[Crushmaster]

I am amazed once again at some of the unscriptural claims Calvinist make! It is very sad.
Joel, I know you did not answer my last questions on the last thread you and I discussed. Perhaps the questions challenged your beliefs too much. I do not know. (I would still love to see you provide answers to them so we could continue that discussion.)

Sir, I said,
"Sir, I do not desire to debate with you. Scripture has been presented. Look to the Scriptures and they will show you what you should believe on any issue, no matter what it is. If you are honestly interested, however, I will continue speaking with you."

It was quite OBvious from your post after mine that you were not honestly interested.

Let me ask you some more on this topic you started.

Look at the Scriptures I posted on the first page of this topic.

I have nothing more to say to you, sir. Have a good day.
God bless,
Joel ><>.
2 Chronicles 7:14.

[TMAC]

Here is your quote from your last post on the other topic, "Sir, I do not desire to debate with you. Scripture has been presented. Look to the Scriptures and they will show you what you should believe on any issue, no matter what it is. If you are honestly interested, however, I will continue speaking with you." (For those interested this was on the topic "Who did Christ die for?")

You made it clear you would continue discussing it with me if I desired. The prOBlem was the next set of questions I asked were very difficult because answering them correctly meant contradicting Calvinism. You seem willing to discuss it with people who are not used to debating with Calvinist. Does not the Bible command us to "earnestly contend for the faith"? If you are not willing to answer the questions perhaps you should not start threads you are not willing to discuss.

Please answer the questions. I truly desire to see your answer to them. If your position is Biblical you have nothing to fear.

[Covenanter]

Here is a verse brought up earlier, but overlooked, in this discussion: (Mar 10:21) "Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me."

I answered that with post #21


Questions:
Is this rich man lost or saved in context? Yes/No
Is he "wholly evil"? Yes/No
Did Jesus love him? Yes/No

We are not told in context, but his sadness could well be the 2Cr 7:10 godly sorrow [that] worketh repentance to salvation.

Why are we told Jesus loved him? We are not told of the love of Jesus for the Pharisees - that generation of vipers.

What is important is that the reader, convicted & drawn to Jesus should respond positively. The Bible's questions are not for speculation & argument, but for YOUR & MY response.

[TMAC]

Covenanter,

I appreciate you answering the questions. You are incorrect in saying the context does not tell us. It directly tells us the man was lost and the reason for his sorrow. It was not the godly sorrow which leads to repentance. If that was the case the man would be repenting toward God, not away from God! Again, godly sorrow leads one directly to God, not away from God. His sorrow was not because of his sin, his sorrow was because he was not willing to repent of sin because he had great possessions (Mark 10:22).

Jesus made clear this man was lost in verse 23. (Jesus was directly referring to the man in this verse.)

So this man was indeed lost, and Jesus loved him.

Now, does this mean this verse contradicts verses such as Joel brought up? No, it does not, unless you believe in Calvinism! A Calvinist cannot admit this verse says Jesus loved a lost man or they will deny a key tenet to Calvinism. Calvinist fail to see how God's Holiness, justice, and love as well as hatred work together. Too often we define these terms from mans imperfect ability to attempt these traits, whereas God is perfect in all of these. To deny God does not love every single person on earth is to deny God is love. Let me try and explain further with more questions and scripture. First, I will try and show God does love all men, and yet hate the wicked. (By the way I hope to show how wicked the idea is of God only loving the elect as Calvinist defines election.)


Covenanter,

Should a son/daughter love his parents and family? Yes/No
Would God command us do something contrary to His will and character? Yes/No
(Please respond with yes/no answers and then give explanation if you desire.)

[anime4christ]

What part do you really disagree with?

>>>My statement:
"Even in the most evil man, there can be found some good, kindness, yet no man can be good enough to go to heaven one his own merits."<<<


"Even in the most evil man, there can be found some good, kindness?"

Or

"...no man can be good enough to go to heaven one his own merits?"


Notice closely, I never stated good works will get a person into heaven, in fact I stated the very opposite, why accuse me of saying differently?

I did say that in most evil people, you will find some goodness.


Lu 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

Have you ever noticed that even many evil people will give good gifts unto their children and friends?

I disagree with the "Even in the most evil man, there can be found some good" part. I don't think the good that an evil man, or any man for that matter, can do is his good or of him. I just believe that any good that is done by any man is all of God; whether the person is saved or not. I know you didn't mention salvation by works and I agree with you there; I just think the question about the source of good goes deeper than that. That's all.

[Bro K]

Here's one I've had trouble getting. How can God love the lost man but have His wrath abiding on Him? I've heard people say that God loved the world at Calvary, but that God does not love a man who is in his sins. That's doesn't sit right with me.

John 3:36, "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."

In regards to your above question; I give this question: "How can a Father love his rebellish son, knowing that at times he must apply physical punishment"

I've heard this saying: "God loves the sinner, but hates the sin"

I personally believe it is impossible for man to fully understand the love of God. We know that whatever God does, it is good whether we understand it or not.

"Why do the sinful prosper?"....."Why did God a take my baby?"....."Why did God take my wife and leave me with small children?"....these are examples of events that occur for which it is hard to answer; whether one is a christian or not.

[JerryNumbers]

I disagree with the "Even in the most evil man, there can be found some good" part. I don't think the good that an evil man, or any man for that matter, can do is his good or of him. I just believe that any good that is done by any man is all of God; whether the person is saved or not. I know you didn't mention salvation by works and I agree with you there; I just think the question about the source of good goes deeper than that. That's all.

Wow, you mean to say that the evil man is totally evil, and will only do evil, even to his children?

Have you ever read this verse?

Lu 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

[heartstrings]

Could we with ink the ocean fill,
And were the skies of parchment made,
Were every stalk on earth a quill,
And every man a scribe by trade,
To write the love of God above,
Would drain the ocean dry.
Nor could the scroll contain the whole,
Though stretched from sky to sky.

This was found pen­ciled on the wall of a pa­tient’s room in an in­sane asy­lum af­ter he had been car­ried to his grave, the gen­er­al opin­ion was that this in­mate had writ­ten the epic in mo­ments of san­ity.
Whoever wrote it, I'm fully persuaded that he knew who he was writing about.
And He lives in my heart too!

[anime4christ]

I've heard this saying: "God loves the sinner, but hates the sin"

This saying was invented by Mahatma Ghandi.

[anime4christ]

Wow, you mean to say that the evil man is totally evil, and will only do evil, even to his children?

Have you ever read this verse?

Lu 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

There are people like that, who will abuse and murder their children. If it were not for the grace of God restraining the evil of man, they would do unlimited evil. I just believe all good that people can do is only by God's grace. I think all good is only from God. Man has no good within himself on his own.

Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. - James 1:17

[JerryNumbers]

There are people like that, who will abuse and murder their children. If it were not for the grace of God restraining the evil of man, they would do unlimited evil. I just believe all good that people can do is only by God's grace. I think all good is only from God. Man has no good within himself on his own.

Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. - James 1:17

I give up, you jerk everything our of contest to mean what you want it to mean, not going to the Bible to see what God tells you to believe.