Calvinistic dispensationalists claming not to be Calvinist?

[heartstrings]

As I look at the comments in this thread, I'm finding that they are fairly typical of discussions like this. I think it is impossible for any of us to accomplish what wiser men couldn't and resolve the Calvinist/Arminian debate once and for all.

Some biblical facts are these:
"Whosoever will" may come.
It is God which worketh in us both to will and to do...
God's church is called "the elect."
No man can come unless the Father draws him.
Christ died for the sins of the world.
Those who are saved were predestined to choose Christ.
(More, of course. These are just a few.)

Paradoxes abound. Who are we to think we can understand all mysteries regarding soteriology? I'm with CPR: undecided, and likely to remain so, since my small brain cannot reconcile these things. I'm content to know that I serve a God who has already done so, and I'm willing to bet that mere men, with their finite minds, will never be able to agree on these issues. I'm not even sure that "Calvinism" or "Arminianism" is a proper way to frame the issue, anyway. Both are man-made systems, and neither one by itself can express all that is true about salvation. It's just too big a concept...yet fortunately God has made the meat of the issue simple enough for a child (Calvinist or Arminian) to understand and accept. I'm content to trust and rest in Christ's work for me, and marvel at His wisdom and grace. I don't have to understand everything about it.

I think that getting doctrine right is very important.
Predestination, has to do with sanctification; being conformed to the image of Christ. It has nothing to do with salvation. Also, it is always addressed to a GROUP(ie. they, them) and never to individuals. Everyone is not going to understand that, but a few will.

Jesus paid for every single sin ever committed or which will ever BE committed and He paid them for the WHOLE WORLD. 1 John 2:2 Why pay fo every sin and every sinner, if you are only planning to save certain ones? And if you are only planning to save certain ones, then why say that it is your WILL for ALL to be saved? 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

[JerryNumbers]

As I look at the comments in this thread, I'm finding that they are fairly typical of discussions like this. I think it is impossible for any of us to accomplish what wiser men couldn't and resolve the Calvinist/Arminian debate once and for all.

Some biblical facts are these:
"Whosoever will" may come.
It is God which worketh in us both to will and to do...
God's church is called "the elect."
No man can come unless the Father draws him.
Christ died for the sins of the world.
Those who are saved were predestined to choose Christ.
(More, of course. These are just a few.)

Paradoxes abound. Who are we to think we can understand all mysteries regarding soteriology? I'm with CPR: undecided, and likely to remain so, since my small brain cannot reconcile these things. I'm content to know that I serve a God who has already done so, and I'm willing to bet that mere men, with their finite minds, will never be able to agree on these issues. I'm not even sure that "Calvinism" or "Arminianism" is a proper way to frame the issue, anyway. Both are man-made systems, and neither one by itself can express all that is true about salvation. It's just too big a concept...yet fortunately God has made the meat of the issue simple enough for a child (Calvinist or Arminian) to understand and accept. I'm content to trust and rest in Christ's work for me, and marvel at His wisdom and grace. I don't have to understand everything about it.

Its no mystery, its in the Bible for us, if we will only heed, OBey, it as directed by God. Of course there will always be false teachers proclaiming another gospel, God has warned us about that, in the latter days there will even be more of them. And its quite clear, those who proclaim the Calvinist doctrine are on the rise teaching commandments of men for commandments for God.

[MatthewDiscipleOfGod]

The L (Limited Atonement) is very easy to prove wrong with the Bible. Calvinists will often twist the Word of God though and say things like "world doesn't mean world" or "all doesn't mean all".

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

1 Timothy 2:3-6
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

[Annie]

I think that getting doctrine right is very important.
Predestination, has to do with sanctification; being conformed to the image of Christ. It has nothing to do with salvation. Also, it is always addressed to a GROUP(ie. they, them) and never to individuals. Everyone is not going to understand that, but a few will.

Jesus paid for every single sin ever committed or which will ever BE committed and He paid them for the WHOLE WORLD. 1 John 2:2 Why pay fo every sin and every sinner, if you are only planning to save certain ones? And if you are only planning to save certain ones, then why say that it is your WILL for ALL to be saved? 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

I agree that getting doctrine right, insofar as we are able, is very important. However, there are things we just cannot understand. There are concepts that we cannot reconcile (such as free will vs. sovereignty).

I'm no Calvinist (or Arminian, really), but I still say that believers were predestined to be saved, according to Romans 8:30. The progression is spelled out pretty clearly there: "Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." The point of the passage (as you read on in the context) is that we have nothing to fear, because God has already overseen this whole process; those who have been chosen by Him (predestinated), called to salvation, and saved (justified) can have confidence that they will be glorified (spend eternity in heaven), because nothing can break into this process of predestination, calling, justification, and glorification. God is doing these things, not man. His sovereignty oversees the whole process. How does man's free will fit in? I don't know, but it does somehow. Neither Calvinism nor Arminianism can answer these questions satisfactorily, IMO.

[CPR]

I agree that getting doctrine right, insofar as we are able, is very important. However, there are things we just cannot understand. There are concepts that we cannot reconcile (such as free will vs. sovereignty).

I'm no Calvinist (or Arminian, really), but I still say that believers were predestined to be saved, according to Romans 8:30. The progression is spelled out pretty clearly there: "Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." The point of the passage (as you read on in the context) is that we have nothing to fear, because God has already overseen this whole process; those who have been chosen by Him (predestinated), called to salvation, and saved (justified) can have confidence that they will be glorified (spend eternity in heaven), because nothing can break into this process of predestination, calling, justification, and glorification. God is doing these things, not man. His sovereignty oversees the whole process. How does man's free will fit in? I don't know, but it does somehow. Neither Calvinism nor Arminianism can answer these questions satisfactorily, IMO.

I agree, these doctrines are man-made and both can be open to some serious theological questions. Some things we just aren't going to be able to answer with the limits of our human understanding and maybe we aren't supposed to. There are genuine Christians on all sides of this debate, so I think sometimes we just have to do the best we can and trust that through all our disagreements and uncertainties God has it all figured out and that's what really matters.

[John81]

For the record I'm undecided about what I think about Calvinism, but thought y'all might enjoy this picture for a laugh...

This is funny but if it were not posted here my first thought would be the Korean War. Actually, even being posted here that was my first thought too but since it was posted here I got your meaning.

[John81]

Calvinism should be bashed at every opportunity since it is one of the worse heresies to effect the church and it has really done a number on many one time vibrant, soul winning Baptist churches.

Actually in my studies over the past couple of months I've come across the fact that many of the most outstanding missionary ministries were put forth by Calvinists. Spurgeon, who was Calvinist, was a great soulwinner. The church in this region which spreads the Gospel, sends forth and supports the most missionaries and is big on soul winning is a Calvinist Baptist church.

From what I've heard previous to the past couple months of studies, I didn't expect to discover any of this.

[John81]

I agree that getting doctrine right, insofar as we are able, is very important. However, there are things we just cannot understand. There are concepts that we cannot reconcile (such as free will vs. sovereignty).

I'm no Calvinist (or Arminian, really), but I still say that believers were predestined to be saved, according to Romans 8:30. The progression is spelled out pretty clearly there: "Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." The point of the passage (as you read on in the context) is that we have nothing to fear, because God has already overseen this whole process; those who have been chosen by Him (predestinated), called to salvation, and saved (justified) can have confidence that they will be glorified (spend eternity in heaven), because nothing can break into this process of predestination, calling, justification, and glorification. God is doing these things, not man. His sovereignty oversees the whole process. How does man's free will fit in? I don't know, but it does somehow. Neither Calvinism nor Arminianism can answer these questions satisfactorily, IMO.

I've noted that some compare this with the concept of the Trinity. The Trinity is an issue which has been much fought over. Can we understand the Trinity, how three disctinct personages can be one? Yet most, if not all, here accept the Trinity even though we can't explain it.

Scripture does tell us that our ways are not God's ways and also tells us God's thoughts are so far higher than ours we can't understand it all and some things are kept secret from us.

Some also connect the predestination/free will issue with the Trinity and also with eschotology. While today there is more agreement with regardst to the Trinity than in the past, there is still yet much debate regarding the other two.

[anime4christ]

John, Annie, and CPR.

I guess this is not the best way to put this, but I'll have to because some of the people won't get it any other way. Instead of wasting your energy on bashing us Calvinists and claiming that we're going to hell (if you don't believe we're on our way then, you wouldn't oppose us so vehemently), use it to witness to those who are truly lost and save souls. I don't like boasting, but I just came home from a trip to a retirement home where we served the elderly, preached the gospel, and witnessed to them. And I don't care if you guys don't believe that Calvinists should or should not preach the gospel, but that's what we plan to continue doing as long as we breathe. Normally, I wouldn't go trumpet our accomplishments before you, but I want to prick your conscience a bit because you guys are throwing false accusations at me and other Calvinistic brothers, and I'm just sick of it. I'm happy to discuss theology and doctrine, but not in such a hostile environment.

[CPR]

John, Annie, and CPR.

I guess this is not the best way to put this, but I'll have to because some of the people won't get it any other way. Instead of wasting your energy on bashing us Calvinists and claiming that we're going to hell (if you don't believe we're on our way then, you wouldn't oppose us so vehemently), use it to witness to those who are truly lost and save souls. I don't like boasting, but I just came home from a trip to a retirement home where we served the elderly, preached the gospel, and witnessed to them. And I don't care if you guys don't believe that Calvinists should or should not preach the gospel, but that's what we plan to continue doing as long as we breathe. Normally, I wouldn't go trumpet our accomplishments before you, but I want to prick your conscience a bit because you guys are throwing false accusations at me and other Calvinistic brothers, and I'm just sick of it. I'm happy to discuss theology and doctrine, but not in such a hostile environment.

Unfortunately, some people like to "preach to the converted" and believe that everyone must think like them in order to truly be saved. It's sad because we could do so much more if we rejoiced in the glorious mysteries of Jesus Christ and focused on our many similarities rather than our few differences.

My mom said something to me one time when I was a teenager. I was really upset after a run in with a former youth leader who tried to convince me that they didn't teach "real stuff" at the church I was currently attending. My mom told me that he was trying to put God and his faith in a very small box, but God's box is a whole lot bigger and there's room for a lot more people than just him.

Sadly, he's not the only one out there, and you and I will both have many more run ins with people who try to put God in a small box that they can understand. We just have to do the best we can to bring glory to God and let the other things go. Even though it's easier said than done!!!

[Annie]

Unfortunately, some people like to "preach to the converted" and believe that everyone must think like them in order to truly be saved. It's sad because we could do so much more if we rejoiced in the glorious mysteries of Jesus Christ and focused on our many similarities rather than our few differences.

Agreed. I was raised completely Arminian (did not believe any points of TULIP, including Perseverance/"once saved always saved"). Now, the church I attend currently has a pastor who is pretty Calvinistic. I must say that I have learned a lot from both perspectives; each perspective focuses on important aspects of salvation that the other perspective leaves out (or at least gives no accounting for). I think it is intellectually dishonest to post a bunch of proof texts for one side or the other, while refusing to deal with the texts which seem to raise questions about whatever position is being advocated. As John said, we don't have too much trouble accepting "illogical" concepts like the Trinity by faith; why can't we do the same with the paradoxes and tensions inherent in the free will of man/sovereignty of God truths?

Given: God is sovereign over all.
Given: Man is free to choose.

These two biblical truths seem (to man's finite mind) to be completely mutually exclusive/contradictory ideas. Logic tells us that both cannot be true. Therefore, we tend to pick one "given" and make it the basis for our soteriological constructs, and totally ignore the other equally true "given." A better approach is to say, "I don't understand how both of these ideas can be true, but God says that they are, so they are. The prOBlem is not with God, or with the Bible, but with my inability as a finite human to completely understand God's thoughts."

Now, although I said that both "givens" above are biblical truths, upon further reflection, I can think of a whole lot of verses that state outright the concept of God's sovereignty, but I cannot think of any verses that state outright the concept of man's free will. It's more of an implied concept, communicated in verses which ask us to "choose this day," or which narrate events in which humans chose one way or the other, and received consequences of those choices. I'm not saying that either concept is unbiblical...just that the concept of God's sovereignty is stated more directly than the concept of man's free will. Edited June 13, 2010 by Annie

[JerryNumbers]

John, Annie, and CPR.

I guess this is not the best way to put this, but I'll have to because some of the people won't get it any other way. Instead of wasting your energy on bashing us Calvinists and claiming that we're going to hell (if you don't believe we're on our way then, you wouldn't oppose us so vehemently), use it to witness to those who are truly lost and save souls. I don't like boasting, but I just came home from a trip to a retirement home where we served the elderly, preached the gospel, and witnessed to them. And I don't care if you guys don't believe that Calvinists should or should not preach the gospel, but that's what we plan to continue doing as long as we breathe. Normally, I wouldn't go trumpet our accomplishments before you, but I want to prick your conscience a bit because you guys are throwing false accusations at me and other Calvinistic brothers, and I'm just sick of it. I'm happy to discuss theology and doctrine, but not in such a hostile environment.

Now, please, show me where I said you were going to hell? I did not. I don't think anyone has made that comment in this topic. Why revert to such tactics?

[heartstrings]

Agreed. I was raised completely Arminian (did not believe any points of TULIP, including Perseverance/"once saved always saved"). Now, the church I attend currently has a pastor who is pretty Calvinistic. I must say that I have learned a lot from both perspectives; each perspective focuses on important aspects of salvation that the other perspective leaves out (or at least gives no accounting for). I think it is intellectually dishonest to post a bunch of proof texts for one side or the other, while refusing to deal with the texts which seem to raise questions about whatever position is being advocated. As John said, we don't have too much trouble accepting "illogical" concepts like the Trinity by faith; why can't we do the same with the paradoxes and tensions inherent in the free will of man/sovereignty of God truths?

Given: God is sovereign over all.
Given: Man is free to choose.

These two biblical truths seem (to man's finite mind) to be completely mutually exclusive/contradictory ideas. Logic tells us that both cannot be true. Therefore, we tend to pick one "given" and make it the basis for our soteriological constructs, and totally ignore the other equally true "given." A better approach is to say, "I don't understand how both of these ideas can be true, but God says that they are, so they are. The prOBlem is not with God, or with the Bible, but with my inability as a finite human to completely understand God's thoughts."

Now, although I said that both "givens" above are biblical truths, upon further reflection, I can think of a whole lot of verses that state outright the concept of God's sovereignty, but I cannot think of any verses that state outright the concept of man's free will. It's more of an implied concept, communicated in verses which ask us to "choose this day," or which narrate events in which humans chose one way or the other, and received consequences of those choices. I'm not saying that either concept is unbiblical...just that the concept of God's sovereignty is stated more directly than the concept of man's free will.

I think what is totally illogical to the natural mind is the concept that God can KNOW everthing that is going to happen without CAUSING it all to happen. But, just like the Trinity, it just takes faith to be able to beleive it.
Once again; I am neither Arminian, nor Calvinistic, so I have defended neither "side".
But I have dealt with one of the controversial texts (Romans 8) in this thread. If you have any more you would like me to address, please post them and I will.

[anime4christ]

Now, please, show me where I said you were going to hell? I did not. I don't think anyone has made that comment in this topic. Why revert to such tactics?

How can one go to Heaven believing a false gospel? You said that Calvinism teaches a false gospel, so the logical conclusion is that those believing in a false gospel are headed to hell. Also, on the other thread I started earlier, someone - I believe heartstrings - said that if I am truly saved, God will show me my error and I will convert from Calvinism. That implies that anyone who is a Calvinist at death is lost.

If Calvinists are going to Heaven, however, then why claim that they teach a false gospel, and why so vehemently oppose them? Let me ask you then straight, because I'm sure it's implied in your statements: are Calvinists Christians? Are they going to Heaven or hell? Edited June 13, 2010 by anime4christ

[Invicta]

Before my daughter went to university, she qorked for a few months on a Lawyer's office.

On one ocassion, the bass said to her that something "Was a bit of luck." She replied, "I suppose so, if you believe in luck." "What do you believe in, Predestination?" "Yes, I do, actually." After that when anyone made a mistke, he said "It wasn't a mistake, it was predestined."

I was for a lomg time in a Brethren where they taught dispensationalism and although they didn't mention it I suppose they were Arminian.

In my present church, there are those who would call themselves Reformed and prOBably those who don't. Our preacher tonight is Brethren and a dispi, and prOBably would be Arminian.

Our senior deacon died last year, be was a lovely brother and a dispensationalist. I remember him preaching on the sheep and goats and saying that they were neither Christians or Jews, but the sheep were thoase who protected the Jews in the tribulation. I thought that was a strange doctrine then and do now. I consider that Salvation By Works.

Do we offer the gospel to all? Of course. Will all come? No. Do we realize when we repent of or sins that Jesus chose us? No. "You did not choose me, I chose you."

Do I consider Arminians Christians, Yes, I was one once, even though I had never heard of Arminius or Calvin. Do I accept TULIP. I have never considered it. Is the church a Chosen People, as the Jews were? Of course. 1 Peter 2:9 gives the same promise to the Church that God, through Moses, gave to the Jews. The Gospel we preach is exactly the same Gospel that was preached in the Brethren. "Repent and be converted and you will receive the gifft of the Holy Spirit."

I know there are some who don't believe we should offer the Gospel, I know of one Arminian who oused to preach at the open air services our former church held. He would speak quietly, believing that it was for people to come and hear. I believe he was a Hyper Darbyite.