Is the IFB the only true church?

[Brother Rick]

In situations where there are onlookers, while one might not be able to reach the person they are addressing directly, yet they may indeed reach the onlookers. The lurkers and readers may benefit from your biblical examples.

You make a really good point, John, thanks. I guess it is worth going into.

---

Dear heretic,

Romans 6:3 isn't talking about water baptism. In fact, water baptism isn't even mentioned in all of chapter 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, 7, 8, 9.... get the point? See the historical problem with members of your denomination (I use that word charitably) dating back to Alexander Campbell is that whenever they see the word "water" they think baptism and whenever they see the word "baptism" they think water.

Not all baptism involves water.

Let me say it again - not all baptism involves water.

[brief intermission: In case you, the outside reader, think I'm a big meanie and shouldn't call this man a heretic, I'd like you to know that in over 1,300 posts this is the first time I've called someone a heretic on this board - or any other. You see, while I may disagree with someone over end times, I know he's my brother and he'll wind up in Heaven with me one day. I may disagree with some on this board about the Bible issue, but my mansion in Heaven might be right next to theirs (I wouldn't be surprised if it was smaller than theirs) and I know I'll be fellowshipping with them in the sweet by-and-by. You see, I wouldn't call someone who is a brother or sister in Christ a heretic. I wouldn't call someone who is confused about how to get saved a heretic. But CoC333 is different then my brothers and sisters on this board. If you believe him, you won't just be wrong about something that is, yes, very important and doctinal: you'll wind up in Hell. He's not confused or searching, he's an active pusher of damnable heresy. He joined a board that is a "Baptist" board, and while we aren't all Baptists here we all agree that Salvation is by grace through faith, plus nothing and minus nothing, as the weight of New Testament Scripture demonstrates.]

Once again, just in case you got distracted by a phone call, or if your stomach started growling or something: not all baptism involves water.

Matthew 20:22-23, “But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.
23) And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.”

*DING* *DING* *DING*

Jesus had already been water baptized when He said this! The people He was speaking to had already been water baptized as well! THAT baptism is something else, it's a baptism of suffering that Jesus went through. The apostles went through the same thing in one way or another. Either Jesus was talking about them suffering martyrdom (a possibility) or he was talking about the very baptism you mentioned in Romans 6:3.

Romans 6:3, "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?"

When someone is water baptized, they get wet. They are baptized into water. I know because of your Catholic leanings...

[brief intermission for the outside reader: The "Church of Christ" denomination, sect, or cult - whatever, is really nothing more than "diet Catholic." It's like the "one calorie" version of the Catholic church. They both teach you must be water baptized, by them, or else go to Hell. They both lay a unusual emphasis on the Lord's Supper. They teach you must be part of their group or you'll go to Hell. Both teach you can lose your salvation, and most of the time neither one of them really know if they are "saved." Both groups claim infallibility, in a roundabout way. Both talk allot about wanting unity, but what they really mean is they want us to do is join them and stick our heads in the sand agreeing with everything they say.]

...you get really unbiblically spooky with the blood of Christ. The Catholics think the wine turns into blood (even though it still tastes like Hooch) and you think that touching water means touching Christ's blood (even though the water still looks, tastes, and smells like water). Neither one of these ideas are biblically substantiated. Have you ever thought about how Christ gets into you? If you get water baptized to get into Him, does that mean He gets water baptized to get into you, every time someone gets saved? This is looney to even think about.

Rom. 8:9-11, “But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10) And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11) But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.”

Salvation is spiritual. Water baptism is physical. They are not the same. Christ gets into you spirituallly and you get into Him spiritually. When a person gets saved the Holy Spirit indwells him - spiritually (1 Cor. 6:19-20, 3:16, Eph. 4:30). When a person has the Holy Spirit in them, they are then placed into the spiritual body of Christ. This is called a spiritual baptism, and it's the only one that makes an eternal difference to a believer which is why it's the "one Baptism" of Eph. 4:5. This verse best describes spiritual baptism:

I Cor. 12:13, "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."

The "one body" you are baptized into at the beginning of the verse is the same thing as the "one Spirit" at the end of the verse. It's a spiritual organism, a spiritual body that has nothing to do with water. Every believer that is saved is "in Christ," meaning they're in this body. It has nothing to do with a denomination or the title on the church you go to. It's whether or not the Holy Spirit lives in you.

That's what it means to be "baptized into Jesus Christ" in Romans 6:3.

Here's another example, and I know you'll love this one:

John 3:3-7, "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4) Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6) That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7) Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again."

This passage says "water." Once again, it doesn't say "water baptism" or even "baptism" at all in the entire chapter. In verse six Jesus defines "born of water" as being a fleshly birth ("flesh is flesh") and being born of the spirit as being a spiritual birth ("spirit is spirit"). You get saved by being born of the spirit and water has nothing to do with it.

In fact, water baptism has nothing to do with the Gospel at all!

I Cor. 1:17, "For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect."

Paul clearly lays out the difference between the Gospel and water baptism. If water baptism is an absolute necessity for salvation, then Christ has sent us ALL to baptize. Evidently the greatest missionary and Christian who ever lived wasn't sent to though.

So, what is the gospel one might ask?

I Cor. 15:1-4, "Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2) By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3) For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4) And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

It's the death, burial, and resurrection, and it has nothing to do with water baptism. It's faith, faith, faith! Only faith in Christ can save, not baptism, church membership, and certainly not works. We can't do anything to earn it - it's a gift!

Romans 10:8-13, "But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11) For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12) For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

Romans 6:23, "For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Ephesians 2:5-9, "Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7) That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9) Not of works, lest any man should boast. " Edited March 25, 2011 by Rick Schworer

[dantheman2]

You make a really good point, John, thanks. I guess it is worth going into.

---

Dear heretic,

Romans 6:3 isn't talking about water baptism. In fact, water baptism isn't even mentioned in all of chapter 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, 7, 8, 9.... get the point? See the historical problem with members of your denomination (I use that word charitably) dating back to Alexander Campbell is that whenever they see the word "water" they think baptism and whenever they see the word "baptism" they think water.

Not all baptism involves water.

Let me say it again - not all baptism involves water.

[brief intermission: In case you, the outside reader, think I'm a big meanie and shouldn't call this man a heretic, I'd like you to know that in over 1,300 posts this is the first time I've called someone a heretic on this board - or any other. You see, while I may disagree with someone over end times, I know he's my brother and he'll wind up in Heaven with me one day. I may disagree with some on this board about the Bible issue, but my mansion in Heaven might be right next to theirs (I wouldn't be surprised if it was smaller than theirs) and I know I'll be fellowshipping with them in the sweet by-and-by. You see, I wouldn't call someone who is a brother or sister in Christ a heretic. I wouldn't call someone who is confused about how to get saved a heretic. But CoC333 is different then my brothers and sisters on this board. If you believe him, you won't just be wrong about something that is, yes, very important and doctinal: you'll wind up in Hell. He's not confused or searching, he's an active pusher of damnable heresy. He joined a board that is a "Baptist" board, and while we aren't all Baptists here we all agree that Salvation is by grace through faith, plus nothing and minus nothing, as the weight of New Testament Scripture demonstrates.]

Once again, just in case you got distracted by a phone call, or if your stomach started growling or something: not all baptism involves water.

Matthew 20:22-23, “But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.
23) And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.”

*DING* *DING* *DING*

Jesus had already been water baptized when He said this! The people He was speaking to had already been water baptized as well! THAT baptism is something else, it's a baptism of suffering that Jesus went through. The apostles went through the same thing in one way or another. Either Jesus was talking about them suffering martyrdom (a possibility) or he was talking about the very baptism you mentioned in Romans 6:3.

Romans 6:3, "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?"

When someone is water baptized, they get wet. They are baptized into water. I know because of your Catholic leanings...

[brief intermission for the outside reader: The "Church of Christ" denomination, sect, or cult - whatever, is really nothing more than "diet Catholic." It's like the "one calorie" version of the Catholic church. They both teach you must be water baptized, by them, or else go to Hell. They both lay a unusual emphasis on the Lord's Supper. They teach you must be part of their group or you'll go to Hell. Both teach you can lose your salvation, and most of the time neither one of them really know if they are "saved." Both groups claim infallibility, in a roundabout way. Both talk allot about wanting unity, but what they really mean is they want us to do is join them and stick our heads in the sand agreeing with everything they say.]

...you get really unbiblically spooky with the blood of Christ. The Catholics think the wine turns into blood (even though it still tastes like Hooch) and you think that touching water means touching Christ's blood (even though the water still looks, tastes, and smells like water). Neither one of these ideas are biblically substantiated. Have you ever thought about how Christ gets into you? If you get water baptized to get into Him, does that mean He gets water baptized to get into you, every time someone gets saved? This is looney to even think about.

Rom. 8:9-11, “But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10) And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11) But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.”

Salvation is spiritual. Water baptism is physical. They are not the same. Christ gets into you spirituallly and you get into Him spiritually. When a person gets saved the Holy Spirit indwells him - spiritually (1 Cor. 6:19-20, 3:16, Eph. 4:30). When a person has the Holy Spirit in them, they are then placed into the spiritual body of Christ. This is called a spiritual baptism, and it's the only one that makes an eternal difference to a believer which is why it's the "one Baptism" of Eph. 4:5. This verse best describes spiritual baptism:

I Cor. 12:13, "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."

The "one body" you are baptized into at the beginning of the verse is the same thing as the "one Spirit" at the end of the verse. It's a spiritual organism, a spiritual body that has nothing to do with water. Every believer that is saved is "in Christ," meaning they're in this body. It has nothing to do with a denomination or the title on the church you go to. It's whether or not the Holy Spirit lives in you.

That's what it means to be "baptized into Jesus Christ" in Romans 6:3.

Here's another example, and I know you'll love this one:

John 3:3-7, "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4) Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6) That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7) Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again."

This passage says "water." Once again, it doesn't say "water baptism" or even "baptism" at all in the entire chapter. In verse six Jesus defines "born of water" as being a fleshly birth ("flesh is flesh") and being born of the spirit as being a spiritual birth ("spirit is spirit"). You get saved by being born of the spirit and water has nothing to do with it.

In fact, water baptism has nothing to do with the Gospel at all!

I Cor. 1:17, "For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect."

Paul clearly lays out the difference between the Gospel and water baptism. If water baptism is an absolute necessity for salvation, then Christ has sent us ALL to baptize. Evidently the greatest missionary and Christian who ever lived wasn't sent to though.

So, what is the gospel one might ask?

I Cor. 15:1-4, "Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2) By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3) For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4) And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

It's the death, burial, and resurrection, and it has nothing to do with water baptism. It's faith, faith, faith! Only faith in Christ can save, not baptism, church membership, and certainly not works. We can't do anything to earn it - it's a gift!

Romans 10:8-13, "But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11) For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12) For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

Romans 6:23, "For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Ephesians 2:5-9, "Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7) That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9) Not of works, lest any man should boast. "

I have been reading your post and I must say that you are really not a nice person. I see others who disagree with this coc333 and yet do not act with such vileness as you do. I suggest that you might want to examine yourself rather than worrying about this coc333.

[Brother Rick]

I have been reading your post and I must say that you are really not a nice person. I see others who disagree with this coc333 and yet do not act with such vileness as you do. I suggest that you might want to examine yourself rather than worrying about this coc333.

See Is. 41:21-24, Matthew 23, Luke 12:31-33, I Kings 18, II Chron. 18, and Matthew 3:7-12.

I'm tame.

[dantheman2]

See Is. 41:21-24, Matthew 23, Luke 12:31-33, I Kings 18, II Chron. 18, and Matthew 3:7-12.

I'm tame.

Hardly. I don't see much of a Christian either.

[HappyChristian]

Let's not get into a spitting contest, okay? Water baptism is not necessary for salvation. The Bible is clear on that. And so we will get back to topic, yes? :11backtotopic:

[Brother Rick]

Let's not get into a spitting contest, okay? Water baptism is not necessary for salvation. The Bible is clear on that. And so we will get back to topic, yes?

Sounds good to me, sister! :)

[Covenanter]

I have been reading your [Rick's] post and I must say that you are really not a nice person. I see others who disagree with this coc333 and yet do not act with such vileness as you do. I suggest that you might want to examine yourself rather than worrying about this coc333.

I read Rick's post & thought he explained the problem, & the Scriptures, well. Certainly not in a vile manner.

[coc333]

I have been reading your post and I must say that you are really not a nice person. I see others who disagree with this coc333 and yet do not act with such vileness as you do. I suggest that you might want to examine yourself rather than worrying about this coc333.

Thanks Dan, but you don't really need to "defend" me; I have come to realize the tactics that Rick uses and I simply ignore him. He can't support his claims and so he rather makes personal attacks.

As I have stated before, the Bible clearly supports the need to be baptized in water. I realize that the IFB denomination denies this but the truth remains the same. I will gladly support what I have said here or anywhere else. I will do so in private or in public.

[John81]

Thanks Dan, but you don't really need to "defend" me; I have come to realize the tactics that Rick uses and I simply ignore him. He can't support his claims and so he rather makes personal attacks.

As I have stated before, the Bible clearly supports the need to be baptized in water. I realize that the IFB denomination denies this but the truth remains the same. I will gladly support what I have said here or anywhere else. I will do so in private or in public.

Regardless of whatever else was said, Rick did put forth Scripture to refute your claim.

The Bible clearly the supports the need to be baptized in water as an act of obedience but not as a means of being born again.

IFB is not a denomination. IFB means Independent Fundamental Baptist and the churches which carry this name are Independent, not connected to any other IFB church in any denominational form at all. Not all IFB churches are even willing to accept certain other IFB churches as actually being true IFB churches.

[coc333]

Let's not get into a spitting contest, okay? Water baptism is not necessary for salvation. The Bible is clear on that. And so we will get back to topic, yes?

In Acts 2:37-38 the question is asked “what shall we do (To be forgiven/saved)?” Peter told them to “repent and be baptized…for (unto) the remission of sins…” Verse 41 tells us that those who gladly received his word were baptized and the same day….

In Acts 9, 22, and 26 we are told of Saul/Paul’s conversion. 22:16 Ananias told him to “arise and be baptized and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.”

In Acts 16:30ff we find that the Philippian jailor asked Paul and Silas what he must do in order to be saved. Paul then tells him that he must have faith and that he and his house will be saved. How can they have faith? (Rom 10:17) Paul teaches them that they might have faith and then they believed and actually obeyed by being baptized.

Acts 8:12ff we read of Simon and the others Samaritans who were taught by Philip and they believed and were baptized. Later in the chapter we read of the Ethiopian Eunuch who is studying Isaiah 53 and is taught Jesus by Philip. He then says see, here is water what doth hinder me to be baptized (vs 36) and Philip tells him that if he believes he may…he then confesses Christ to be Son of God and they both go down into the water and are baptized.

We can read of the Ephesians in Acts 19:1-6 and how they are baptized. We can read in Eph 4:5 we read that Paul tells the Eph that there is 1 baptism. (I realize that we read of 7 baptisms in the Bible but there is but 1 that we are under today and that is pretty clear what is being discussed when we look at Acts 8:37 and other passages.)

We can look at other passages such as Rom 6:3ff, Col 2:12, Gal 3:27, etc and see that Baptism is required and that Baptism, despite the false claims of Rick and others, is in fact in water.

Now what clearly taught in the Bible?

[coc333]

Regardless of whatever else was said, Rick did put forth Scripture to refute your claim.

The Bible clearly the supports the need to be baptized in water as an act of obedience but not as a means of being born again.

IFB is not a denomination. IFB means Independent Fundamental Baptist and the churches which carry this name are Independent, not connected to any other IFB church in any denominational form at all. Not all IFB churches are even willing to accept certain other IFB churches as actually being true IFB churches.

So, one can be hateful and rude as long as he "puts forth scripture to refute?" The Bible tells me to speak the truth in love (Eph 4:15) not hatefully.

The Bible clearly and without any doubt teaches that we must be baptized in order to be saved. Acts 2:38 states it is for the forgiveness of sins. Acts 22:16 clearly states that it is to wash away sins. Acts 8:30ff clearly states that it is to be saved. You can deny this; you can ignore this, but the Bible states it and the Bible is the truth (John 17:17).

Rick called the church of Christ a denomination. Each congregation is independent/autonomous. By your own definition, it (the church of Christ) can not be a denomination.

At least be consistent with what is and is not true. I realize, of course, that you and Rick are not the same person and may not agree on what constitues a denomination.

[John81]

So, one can be hateful and rude as long as he "puts forth scripture to refute?" The Bible tells me to speak the truth in love (Eph 4:15) not hatefully.

The Bible clearly and without any doubt teaches that we must be baptized in order to be saved. Acts 2:38 states it is for the forgiveness of sins. Acts 22:16 clearly states that it is to wash away sins. Acts 8:30ff clearly states that it is to be saved. You can deny this; you can ignore this, but the Bible states it and the Bible is the truth (John 17:17).

Rick called the church of Christ a denomination. Each congregation is independent/autonomous. By your own definition, it (the church of Christ) can not be a denomination.

At least be consistent with what is and is not true. I realize, of course, that you and Rick are not the same person and may not agree on what constitues a denomination.

Please don't put words in my mouth. If you have read my posts you would note I have mentioned to Rick before aspects regarding attitude in postings.

You ignored many other verses which would be invalid if the verses you put forth actually meant what you claim.

How am I inconsistent because of something Rick said? I didn't say CoC was a denomination and I wouldn't say that because I don't know as I've never looked into it. Is it CoC churches or CoG churches that don't use instruments, all hymns are sang acapella? I ask, because I attended one for a short time many years ago but can't remember which it was.

[HappyChristian]

Okay, I guess you guys don't understand the meaning of getting back on topic. So....

:threadlockedbc5: