Jump to content
  • Welcome Guest

    For an ad free experience on Online Baptist, Please login or register for free

The spoiled Laodicean Church


Recommended Posts

  • Members

I am not here to debate. I am here to give a message to the church regarding the end times. Many Pre-Tribbers assume that the church is not mentioned within the chapters of Revelation 4-18 therefore this is proof the the church will not endure the Tribulation. However, in Revelation, the Greek word "ekklesia" always refers to a "local" church (the church of Laodicea, Sardis, Ephesus, Smyrna, etc.) and addresses them (all) in the plural and not once refers to it as the universal church. There are not going to be local churches during the Tribulation. You're not going to go to Calvary Baptist church during the Tribulation period. The word church is not mentioned during 4-18, however, the Greek word "hagion" (saints) is mentioned 13 times in Revelation, and 11 out of 13 times is mentioned during the chapters 4-18. The word "hagion" is mentioned 46 times in the NT outside of the 13 times in the book of Revelation. Out of those 46 times, only once does it refer to saints outside the church (Matt. 27:52 - the Jews who were raised during Jesus' crucifixion). So 45 out of 46 times it refers to church age saints. So when the Antichrist wages war against the saints in Revelation 13:7, we can be almost certain that it refers to church age saints. Furthermore, the word "ekklesia" for church is also nowhere to be found in any supposed Pre-Trib prooftexts. Is the church today not willing to suffer persecution for Christ in the hands of the Antichrist? has the church become complacent in their persecution-free theology? Jesus warned to be careful of those who tell us of "secret" gatherings such as the Pre-trib rapture.

Behold, I HAVE TOLD YOU BEFORE. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. FOR AS THE LIGHTNING COMETH OUT OF THE EAST, AND SHINETH EVEN UNTO THE WEST; SO SHALL THE COMING OF THE SON OF MAN BE. (Matthew 24:25-27)

Pre-tribbers will also quote 1 Thess. 5:9 and Rev. 3:10 in an attempt to prove that the church is not destined for God's wrath and therefore will be kept out of the Tribulation.

For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to OBtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, (1 Thessalonians 5:9)

Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. (Revelation 3:10)

God indeed has promised to keep us from His wrath but has never promised protection from Satan's wrath. We also find that God's wrath follows the Tribulation as we shall see from Revelation 6:12-17 and Matthew 24:29,30.

And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? (Revelation 6:12-17)

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (Matthew 24:29,30)

Now these signs (the sun being darkened, stars falling from heaven, the moon not giving it's light, etc.)...Jesus said in Matt. 24:29 that these occur immediately "after" the Tribulation period. Now if we allow the scriptures to interpret the scriptures rather than our own views to interpret the scriptures...we will see that this occurs after the Tribulation and hear the people say that the wrath of the Lamb has come. When? after the Tribulation. Believers are protected from His wrath, but this occurs "after" the Tribulation.

Now let us look at Revelation 11:18

And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. (Revelation 11:18)

So the time of God's wrath had come, but verse 15 tells us that it occurs when? during the 7th trumpet.

And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. (Revelation 11:15)

So the 7th trumpet occurs when Jesus Christ returns to set up His kingdom on planet earth which is AFTER the Tribulation. All other mention of God's "wrath" (Rev. 14:19; 15:1,7; 16:1,19) is toward unbelievers and occurs when Christ returns "after" the Tribulation. Now let's look at Revelation 19:15.

And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. (Revelation 19:15)

When does God's wrath come? when Jesus Christ returns after the Tribulation period when He comes on the clouds of heaven with His heavenly hosts and brings with Him God's wrath on earth. So yes, believers are not destined for God's wrath and at the same time the Tribulation period is a combination of the wrath of man (man reaping what he sowed) plus the wrath of Satan during the last half of the Tribulation when his activities are centered in the earthly sphere.
Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. (Revelation 12:12)

Another verse that Pre-tribbers cite is Revelation 4:1 which reads as:
After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. (Revelation 4:1)

Some pretribbers will say that "come up hither" is symbolic of the rapture, but this is not the rapture at all. Compare this with 2 Corinthians chapter 12 when Paul was caught up to heaven and received visions that he could not even speak of. Now when we compare them both (John and Paul), both were caught up to receive visions and not as a rapture of the church. If we are honest with ourselves, we can clearly see that Pre-tribbers are simply reading into the text what is clearly not there. The voice in Revelation 4:1 tells John to come up hither to receive visions of what must take place in the hereafter. Let's take the Word of God at face value. Let's forget about twisting scripture and acting like..."well the American church isn't going to be persecuted." We have to accept the scriptures for what they say. Just as Christians throughout the centuries have been persecuted, the American Christian church as spoiled brats are going to be persecuted some day. Someone had asked, "If you were about to marry your bride, would you allow for her to be persecuted before your wedding day?" I said Brother, the apostle Paul was as much a part of the Bride of Christ as I am. And if they could bury his body separate from his head...they could do the same for me. We need to get off our high horse and realize that we are not a mature church that does not deserve judgment. We're an immature church that hasn't faced persecution, we're spoiled brats. The time is nigh and the Kingdom of our Lord is near. The question is..."are you ready?"

God Bless!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 33
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

  • Members

"Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him."

Believers will not come under God's wrath in the same way unbelievers will.

"Ephesians 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disOBedience."

The "children of disOBedience" speaks of unbelievers.

"Matthew 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?"

The implication in this verse is that believers will avoid the "wrath to come" which is the great tribulation.

"1 Thessalonians 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come."

It is stated in this verse that believers are delivered from "the wrath to come."

"1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to OBtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,"

You mention this verse and a very good clear verse it is too.


God indeed has promised to keep us from His wrath but has never promised protection from Satan's wrath.


"John 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin."

"JOB 1:9-10 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth JOB fear God for nought? Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land."

Satan can't touch believers without Gods permission therefore from the position of a believer Satans wrath is irrelevant.

Now let us look at Revelation 11:18

And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. (Revelation 11:18)

So the time of God's wrath had come, but verse 15 tells us that it occurs when? during the 7th trumpet.

And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. (Revelation 11:15)

So the 7th trumpet occurs when Jesus Christ returns to set up His kingdom on planet earth which is AFTER the Tribulation. All other mention of God's "wrath" (Rev. 14:19; 15:1,7; 16:1,19) is toward unbelievers and occurs when Christ returns "after" the Tribulation.


Let me get this straight, your saying Christ returns to earth, sets up his kingdom, and the tribulation is OVER in Revelation chapter eleven? :smilie_loco:4 Surely your not saying that are you? That would make explaining the next several chapters very difficult...


One last point that proves pre-trib rapture of believers.


"Matthew 24:37-44 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh."

"Revelation 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame."

Those verses teach that Christs coming for believers will be completely unexpected. If believers have been going through the great tribulation and Christ is to appear at the end or the middle of that then his coming could be predicted with considerable accuracy. Contrariwise we are told that it will be a total surprise. There would be little need for Christ to instruct us to watch for his coming and be ready at any moment if believers were to go through the great trib first.

Those that teach something other than pre-trib rapture are making Christ a liar because they are teaching that we can know about when Christ will come and he says we can't.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Tribulations, troubles, and persecutions can come to Christians, severe persecution may even come one day to Christians in America, but church age believers are certainly never going to go through the great tribulation.


Agree. Examples are all through the bible (New and Old). God always takes His people out before destruction comes if they repent. Yes he does let us go through hard trials and some of us even unto death. But not the main Trib.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Those who think the 'Tribulations' has already started at some time in the past, if they're living when the real 'Tribulations' start, they will be in for quite a surprise at the number of deaths that will take place, the amount of destruction that will take place on this earth. it will be like nothing mankind have ever witnessed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Those who think the 'Tribulations' has already started at some time in the past, if they're living when the real 'Tribulations' start, they will be in for quite a surprise at the number of deaths that will take place, the amount of destruction that will take place on this earth. it will be like nothing mankind have ever witnessed.


Agreed. The loss of life spoken of in Revelation would equal about 75% of the current population of the earth at the time it starts.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Administrators

Those who think the 'Tribulations' has already started at some time in the past, if they're living when the real 'Tribulations' start, they will be in for quite a surprise at the number of deaths that will take place, the amount of destruction that will take place on this earth. it will be like nothing mankind have ever witnessed.


Boy, isn't that the truth!! I shudder to think - all of the horrible things that have happened in the past are nothing compared to what is in store!
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Omega's OP is a clear challenge to the pre-trib rapture teaching. He makes it very clear that the wrath poured out is against the wicked, not against believers. Believers suffer the wrath of Satan & unbelievers - aka persecution.




Agree. Examples are all through the bible (New and Old). God always takes His people out before destruction comes if they repent. Yes he does let us go through hard trials and some of us even unto death. But not the main Trib.


The great tribulation taught by Jesus in Mat. 24 is past. He was talking about the destruction in AD 70. The believers were delivered out of that GT.

Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
.....
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

The 144,000 were Jews, delivered before the GT.

The GT is past, but that is no reason to be complacent - many of our brothers & sisters are suffering extreme persecution today. Paul's counsel applies to us:

Eph 5:16 Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

So you are telling me that the 75% loss of life that Revelation speaks of was already brought down on Earth? There was no where near that devastation at the time of the Roman sacking Jerusalem.


There was in Jerusalem.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

In that day it will be world wide, and it will be something mankind has never seen the likes of, and the only ones left behind will be the unsaved. Of course there will be a few saved during that time, but persecution against them will be like never before seen in the history of mankind.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

So you are telling me that the 75% loss of life that Revelation speaks of was already brought down on Earth? There was no where near that devastation at the time of the Roman sacking Jerusalem.

Do a Greek word search in the Blue Letter Bible. You will find that tribes (phule) refers to Israel, & "world" (ge) is often land, i.e Israel.

We are still living in Gospel days - the wrath of God was poured out on the generation that rejected their Messiah, after the believers were delivered from the city.

2Th 1:6 Seeing [it is] a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that OBey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
....
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

The temple was occupied, desecrated & destroyed. That took place as Paul prophesied. 2T2 had to come before 2T1. We are now waiting for Jesus to come for judgement of the wicked & glorification of his saints.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Further proof from scripture on why the church will go through the Great Tribulation. Now the Word of God clearly teaches a 2nd coming of Christ, not 3 comings where Christ secretly comes for His church a 2nd time and returning a 3rd time to earth. Jesus Christ said that He will come on the clouds of heaven to gather His elect "after" the Tribulation (Matt. 24:29-31). To suggest that the "elect" here refers only to the 144,000 Jews is reading into the text what we want to believe. All throughout the Gospels Jesus welcomed both Jews and Gentiles into His fold, and both Jew and Gentile believers are the elect of God. The Word of God clearly teaches that there will be Gentile believers who will be saved during the Tribulation, and to suggest that these are not considered the elect is to conform Gods' Word to our liking. Jesus Christ said that His return would be OBvious, not in secret. Jesus Christ also never hinted that there would be two separate phases to His return.

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the SECOND TIME without sin unto salvation. (Hebrews 9:27,28)

The burden of proof rests on the pre-tribbers to try to show that there are 2 separate phases to the 2nd coming of Christ. How can you have 2 separate phases to the 2nd coming of Christ with the 7 year tribulation period in between the 2 of them and not call that a 2nd and 3rd return. It is very clear from the Word of God that there will be a 2nd coming of Christ, not a 2nd and 3rd return. The time is nigh and if there's ever been a generation of Christians that needed a good spanking...it's us right now. Let us not be discouraged by God's Word. Many Christians like to have their ears tickled because they're afraid to come out from their comfort zone. But we need to understand that no trials and tribulation, and no amount of persecution that we may suffer in this world can compare to the glory that awaits us in the hereafter. I am writing this to exhort believers in Christ to be prepared for the coming Tribulation and put on the full armor of God.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (Matthew 24:29-31)

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; (Revelation 2:7a)

God Bless!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.



×
×
  • Create New...