Hugh_Flower

Define “desire to have more”.

Also, it’s your flesh, the Devil can influence but ultimately it’s you who wants what you don’t have. 
 

Hmm, Jerry when you mean Salvation, are we also talking about Jews going into Abraham’s bosom? Cause going into there I would disagree…  But being freed from there, into Heaven, I would agree is Jesus Christ giving them salvation. 
 

Only reason I say this - Jews had no way of Knowing who/why they would be free other than knowing that their Lord their God is a loving God that wants to be with them. But the actual work of being liberated from this place of death would of had to of been by Christ.

Psalm 18 for reference.

It’s harder to find Christians in the world living the image of Christ period. Find your self a good church and you won’t struggle finding Christians men or woman. 

My church has a few a month 

Nope it’s definitely not sin for either one Jerry. Both are substances that may have cultural importance, and both can be abused. They are both addictive and may require a more precautious eye if a Christian wishes to steward his body more properly. 

I don’t see much of a difference between caffeine and tobacco use. 

Yeah we should stop using caffeine to

Pre incarnate Christ

angel can be used to to mean ‘appearance’

Well yeah, people DO that, and that’s a pretty reoccurring theme in Church History

Yes as Christians, but for those unsaved, why isn’t this a big deal to them 

Wow. How does this not freak anyone out? 

19 hours ago, Jerry said:

Not that I am saying I am 100% right in every position I post (though I do strive to be Biblical), if the Bible does speak on something, we should do our best to add up all the passages and arrive at the right conclusion, then adjust our understanding and beliefs of Biblical issues and doctrines as the Scriptures are brought to light.

Deuteronomy 29:29 The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

If the Bible teaches something - whether by direct statement, by example, or by precept - then we should base our beliefs and understanding of those issues/passages/etc. on what He has revealed. The opposite is also true: if the Lord has not spoken about something, we should be careful to cling to what He has revealed related to that and hold loosely to any opinions or beliefs that the Bible does not speak on at all.

This part is not addressed to anyone specifically here in this thread, but it is worth noting (to the best of my understanding and memory) that there are NO passages that refer to the angels or what they were doing before creation week (ie. in eternity past). Many have the opinions that they were created and dwelling in Heaven before that point in time (and some who hold to forms of the gap theory teach that the Devil rebelled and was judged before creation week), yet the Bible does not state anything about this time period at all, other than what God is doing (ie. predetermining the plan of salvation and all that it entails). If there are passages that specify or give more light on this theme that I have overlooked, please share them in this thread or others as you come across them.

I agree, I’ve been taught for awhile ( and it makes sense to me ) that Angels where possibly created between verse 1 and 2, now I know most people won’t want to agree with this but to me it makes the most sense.  

21 hours ago, Jerry said:

Nehemiah 9:6 is referring to the third heaven though. Also, God had to create the third heaven, and several passages state that ALL He created was in those six days. It is not like the third heaven has always existed if it was a place made for saved mankind and angels to dwell in.

Right but Nehemiah does not provide a Chronology 

It does seem like the Angels where already worshipping the Lord before the the foundations as they where there present when he did create them.

For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is
 

Heaven here would not be the third Heaven 

On 6/22/2022 at 12:55 PM, Jerry said:

I believe they are the same garden. The different descriptions could be different areas of the garden.

I do not believe any angels fell during creation week. At the end of the sixth day, God said it was very good. I don't believe He would have pronounced His creation very good if there was sin in it.

Other passages state that everything that was made - including the hosts of heaven, the angels (yes, context determines which hosts are in view - either angels or stars) - was made in those six days. Hebrews 1:14 states angels are ministers to those who shall be heirs of salvation, so there is no reason for angels to be created sometime before the creation of the earth (and the universe).

Also, there is nowhere in Scripture that states that the earthly Eden was a type or shadow of a Heavenly Garden of Eden - but in reference to the temple and even Jerusalem, we are told that.

Genesis 2 does indicate that there was gold and other precious stones nearby or in the garden of Eden, connected to one of the rivers:

Genesis 2:10-12 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads. The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold; And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone.

Just want to point out that  Hebrews 1:14 is just declaring a service they provide for our Lord ( Ministering to those who will be heirs of salvation ), but this does not Imply this was the reason the where created. 
 

Now in my opinion (and I bet we could

prove this out through scripture) all the angels where created to give Glory to God and to worship him, and ministering to his will. I think Hebrews 1:14 would just be a part of their service to him. 
 

In that fashion Angels could be pre-existing to our world.

I think people who teach Calvinism do not actually understand what they are saying. 
 

Wasn’t towards you Jerry

Good luck preaching the gospel in a dead language

On 5/14/2022 at 10:22 PM, Jordan Kurecki said:

If by “superior” you mean “more profitable” then yes, if you mean “more accurate” than absolutely not. 

How can a translate be superior to it’s source? Unless you think the original words in Greek given by inspiration were somehow lacking, which would be an unbiblical doctrine. 

Just because from a pragmatic perspective, you can read English and not Greek, does not mean the KJV is superior to the Greek TR. There are people in Uganda who speak Lugbara and not English, and the Lugbara bible is based on the critical text and is more or less closer to the NIV or ESV, does their lack of English understanding mean the Lugbara bible is more superior to the English KJV? 

Conflating the issue. The Lugbara Bible in this context would be superior to the TR and the KJV for those people. The KJV is the superior version for the English, way better than the TR.

You guys are going to have to prove why those are false hoods 

Barbara those refutations are done by a Calvinist. Knox seems pretty solid to me. 

1Ti 4:2  Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

1Ti 4:3  Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

1Ti 4:4  For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:

1Ti 4:5  For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer

I was invited to a Seventh day Adventist but I went a day late

Your free to remarry bro. There is liberty in Christ

All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

The only time I hear it being a gift is when we ask for more ( after being saved ) but I think maybe that’s a fruit.