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OlBrotherDC

Independent Fundamental Baptist
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Posts posted by OlBrotherDC

  1. 10 minutes ago, John Young said:

    Not really sure this is pertinent to the discussion but I wonder if sound and site work differently in the spirit world (no physical body) than in the Physical world. A few examples would be when on earth, Paul, John, Peter, The 70 elders of Israel on Mount Sinai, etc., were given temporary spiritual sight into heaven.

    That’s an interesting thought. I’m not sure! 

  2. 1 hour ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

    Brother DC, that is the answer to my question which I expected, since it is the commonly held view of those who hold to your overall position on this matter concerning the temporary holding place for Old Testament believers.  However, I did not wish to assume your answer; thus I asked the question.

    Now, in relation to your answer -- With the opening line of Acts 2:34, the apostle Peter declared in the present tense under the inspiration of God the Holy Spirit concerning David, "For David IS NOT ascended into the heavens."  This declaration by Peter was made weeks after the death, burial, and resurrection of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.  Thus it would appear either (1) that David (and possible all Old Testament believers, if David is a representative thereof) was NOT taken to heaven by our Lord in the process of His death, burial, and resurrection, or (2) that "ascension" into heaven means something more than simply an entrance therein.

    From the context of Acts 2:29-36, I would contend that the latter is the case, and that "ascension" into heaven (which Jesus Christ, in contrast to David, DID do) should be understood as meaning "resurrection and exaltation."  Yes, our Lord Jesus Christ has ascended into heaven (through resurrection from the dead and exaltation to the right hand of God the Father.)  No, no other individual has ascended into heaven (through resurrection and exaltation), not even unto this very day.  Now, if this understanding concerning the Biblical meaning of "ascension into heaven" is correct, then John 3:13 has nothing to do with those who might have or have not "entered" heaven upon their death.  

    It seems to me that your theology teaches that the blood of Christ was not a necessary piece of salvation for OT believers. If the OT believers went to Heaven without it. Do you still submit that salvation has been the same for everyone for ever? Except some not knowing as much about the details? 

  3. 1 hour ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

    Brother DC, in your explanation you speak concerning "two sides" of "this place" (in the singular), as if the Scriptural passage presents the rich man and Lazarus as going after death to the same place, just a different side of that same place.  However, the Scriptural passage NEVER indicates that they went to the same place.  It ONLY indicates that the rich man went to hell, and that Lazarus went "into Abraham's bosom."  In fact, the passage clearly indicates that these two places are separate and different places, and never equates the one with the other.

    Now, at the beginning of your above posting you stated that we should let the Bible say what it says.  Why then do you indicate something different than what it says?  Why then did you not indicate that these two dead men went to two different places, for that is all that the passage actually says?  They went to two different places, and those two different places were divided by a "great gulf."

    Furthermore, I would ask whether you have considered that "Abraham's bosom" is not a reference unto some "place," but is actually a reference to Abraham's personal bosom/chest, wherein Lazarus was brought to literally lie in/on Abraham's personal bosom/chest?  (Note: There is a goodly amount of Scripture wherein the prepositions "in" or "into" are used with "bosom" as the object of those prepositions.)

     

    Revelation 20:13 -- "And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works."  

    So, the saved dead are now in the place called "heaven;" and the unsaved dead are now in the place called "death and hell."  What dead are then in the place called "the sea?"

    The reason I consider them two sides of one place is because they can see each other and communicate back and forth, but can’t cross to the other side. I suppose I am ok with saying two different places? Right next to each other.. 

  4. 2 hours ago, DaChaser said:

    yes, but all of them were not indwelt by the Holy Spirit as we are now!

    I would not use the word "saved" to refer to OT believers before the cross. I do believe however that they were "justified" meaning that they would be "saved" when Christ completed the finished work that God started before the foundation of the world on the cross providing a way for us to be reconciled to Him. I believe the scriptures teach that they were in a place called Abraham's Bosom awaiting the time when they would be "saved". I understand that my position is not the most popular position today. However, I do think if you hold to covenant theology which you yourself have claimed to do, (DaChaser, not Pastor Scott 😂)you will have serious flaws in your theology when you get to James chapter 2. Calvinists are quick to claim salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone, which I agree is the only thing that can save a man in the church age and I have put my faith in this. The problem that I personally see is when you try and apply this to all of the other dispensations. I think I probably have an idea of your view, but I would love to hear your opinion on James 2:21-22. Lest anyone think that I don't believe everyone has to be saved by Christ alone, I do.  I simply think that they were "justified" before Christ by faith in Gods revelation to them "and their obedience to Gods specific commands to them" not to be confused with works to righteousness such as keeping the law. I believe once they were justified, they had avoided hell, and would enter into Abraham's Bosom, or Paradise, until the blood of Christ redeemed them. 

    ,

  5. On 7/1/2020 at 12:36 AM, SureWord said:

    I always assumed he went to both places. To hell to preach to the spirits in prison and to paradise (i.e. Abraham's Bosom) to lead captivity captive.

    I see no problem with the KJV saying Hell, let the Bible say what it says. The problem to me is when we attribute OUR understanding of what Hell is. We do know that people who died before the cross went there. Luke 16 says...

    19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

    20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

    21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

    22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

    23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

    24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

    25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

    26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

    27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

    28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

    29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

    30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

    31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

     

    We know Lazarus died(verse 22), we know he went to Abraham's Bosom (Verse 22),

    the rich man died(verse 22) and went to hell, where he was in torment (verse 23)

    But, where he was he could see Abraham and  Lazarus, (Verse 23) who were not in torment  (unless one thinks Abraham was not justified which is nonsense) The two sides of this place were separated and one could not physically travel from one to the other (verse 26) 

    I think sometimes we think of the lake of fire mentioned in Revelation 20:14 as "Hell". The lake of fire is the eternal place of torment for the unsaved, and since death and hell were cast into it(Revelation 20:14), the place in mention with Lazarus and the rich man cannot be this final place. 

  6. 26 minutes ago, SureWord said:

    I'm sorry, I thought I was clear in avoiding the "How" or "Why" of such a subject while soulwinning. Are you there to witness to them or get sidetracked in a theological debate?

    Was my post deleted?

     

    I wasn’t quoting you, I was quoting DaChaser, I haven’t seen your post. 

  7. 2 hours ago, mbkjpreacher said:

    Where did Jesus go when he died, hell burning with fire or paradise? 

    According to the conversation with the thief on the cross he went to Paradise. 

    39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.

    40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

    41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

    42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

    43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

    Luke 23:39-43

     

  8. 1 hour ago, mbkjpreacher said:

    Did Curtis Hutson teach that Repentance is a work like Steven Anderson?

    Curtis Hutson, as a Bible believing Christian, knew that his place in Heaven was secured by repentance toward God and faith toward the Lord Jesus Christ and the blood He shed for our sins when He died on the cross of Calvary. Brother Smith is with the Lord Jesus Christ right now, but do you know, with 100% assurance, from God's Word, that you will be with Jesus when you die? 

    This came from www.earnestlycontending.com/KT/bios/curtishutson.html 

    Judging from the word repentance being used in this, either himself or the person who wrote it does not believe that repentance is a work. Take from that what you will. 😂

  9. 8 minutes ago, SureWord said:

    It's written to those in "these last days". Now unless the last days cover a time period of 2, 000 years it probably has some future application. That doesn't mean it has no relevance to the Church Age  like the Grace Bible Fellowship churches teach.

    OK

    I didn’t say it had no relevance. I said I wouldn’t pull my doctrine from it. 

  10. 1 minute ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

    No offense was taken.  Just sought to communicate clarity.  Assumptions can be fierce beasts if they turn out to be wrong.

    I hope my disclaimer that was included with it softened the blow. 🤣

     

    11 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

    Yeah, you are wrong there.  I am a VERY STRONG opponent of Covenant/Reformed theology with every fiber of my being.

    On a positive note. Here is something we can wholeheartedly agree on. !!

  11. 1 minute ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

    Yeah, you are wrong there.  I am a VERY STRONG opponent of Covenant/Reformed theology with every fiber of my being.

    You share many of their views in regard to salvation being the same throughout all history. That’s what brought that up. Wasn’t any personal shot. Didn’t mean to offend. 

  12. 2 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

    I am going to guess that I am going to have some VERY STRONG disagreements with you over future time.

    I would assume that any two people, one holding to covenant theology which I believe you do at least to an extent, (and I could be totally wrong there and I apologize if I am),  and one who holds to dispensationalism, as I do. Will have some very strong disagreements fundamentally. I do, however wish you the best and hope that God blesses you and your ministry. 

  13. I appreciate and respect your views. You are correct it does look like I worded some stuff weird earlier, I understand the focus of the belief is on Christ and his finished work through the death, burial, and resurrection. I appreciate your patience in pointing that out. 
     

    I disagree that there is only one gospel, ( I believe there is at least 2, probably 3) but I know people have spent decades arguing these two sides and I doubt we will figure it out here so I don’t know if it’s worth getting into a whole other deal over And people usually start pointing fingers and name calling. I do believe there is only one gospel that we are saved by in this dispensation as I have previously stated many times. 

  14. 22 minutes ago, John Young said:

    You are moving the focus of faith off of Christ and onto his acts. This is called "moving the goal post". We are not saved "by our faith in the death, burial, and resurrection" but rather by our faith in Christ. The acts of Christ in his the Death Burial and Resurrection provided salvation but knowledge of those facts does not save. Rather, our faith is IN CHRIST places is into HIM and only then do we become partakers in His salvation. OT believers IN CHRIST receive the same Blessings without full knowledge of HIS acts to provide that salvation, just as much as do we NT believers who have Knowledge of HIS acts. 

    How much then does someone need to know to be saved? It sounds like your saying that one need not know the death, burial, and resurrection to be saved which Is the Gospel that Paul preached.. 

     

    Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

     By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

    For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

     And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

    1 Corinthians 15:1-4. 

    It sounds to me like Paul was preaching the Death, Burial, and Resurrection of Jesus Christ, otherwise known as The Gospel of the Grace of God (Acts 20:24), or what we might call in this present Church Age, THE GOSPEL. 

     

     

    That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Romans 10:9

  15. 2 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

    Romans 4:3 -- "For what saith the scripture?  Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness."  That particular event is recorded in Genesis 15:6 as occurring in Abraham's lifetime.  

    I have no doubt that Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness, but the object of this faith was not the Death, Burial, and Resurrection of Christ like ours is today. I am not questioning in any way that faith in God's revelation in the appropriate dispensation is the means by which we are saved and have always been saved.

    Was Abel saved by his Faith in Christ?  

    By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh. Hebrews 11:4 

    I see faith in God. Faith that led to action! I see no Death, Burial, and Resurrection. 

     

    By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. Hebrews 11:5

    Enoch had faith, and he was saved because he pleased God through his faith, but again no mention of the Death, Burial, and resurrection. 

    But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Hebrews 11:6

    I agree that faith is ABSOLUTELY necessary. 

    By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. Hebrews 11:7

    Noah had faith, enough faith that he took action to do what God had told him to do. No Death, burial, and resurrection. 

    By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. Hebrews 11:8

    Abraham had faith, and OBEYED, not the belief in the Death, Burial, and Resurrection of Jesus, but in the specific commands God had given to him, I believe this is what was counted to him for righteousness. 

    Are you saying all these people were saved by placing their faith in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ like we are today? 

    25 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

    When do you believe that David actually did ascend into heaven?

    I believe that all OT believers(who had placed their FAITH in the instruction given to them by God in their respective dispensation)went to Abraham's Bosom (NOT HELL) and were saved when Jesus finished the work of eternal salvation on the cross and overcame death. I would think that they ascended to Heaven sometime around the Resurrection of Christ. 

  16. 14 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

    First, why is this even relevant to whether they received the same eternal justification, forgiveness, imputation, and salvation as we do today?  (Somehow you seem to be equating some "place" with the "gift" of justification, forgiveness, imputation, and salvation; yet they are not the same thing.)

    I do believe they received all of these things we received, I just don't believe they received it in their life on Earth in the same manner as we do. They could not be cleansed until the cross, eternal salvation wasn't finished until Jesus said, "It is Finished". John 19:30

     

    14 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

    Second, I do NOT agree with you (as per your earlier posting) on this point.  I would contend that they went straight to heaven.

    13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

    John 3:13

  17. 5 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

    Abraham (as well as David) was indeed an Old Testament believer.  Abraham (as well as David) was indeed justified by and before the Lord God, just like us New Testament believers today.  Abraham (as well as David) did indeed have his sins forgiven/remitted just like us New Testament believers today.  Abraham (as well as David) did indeed have the righteousness of the Lord imputed to his account, just like us New Testament believers today.  Abraham (as well as David) was indeed saved eternally with the same eternal salvation that we receive today.

    Where did Abraham and David go when they died? 

  18. 2 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

    Was Abraham an Old Testament believer?
    Was Abraham justified before the Lord God through faith?
    By definition, can justification occur apart from and before the forgiveness/remission of sins?

    Abraham was an Old Testament believer, though not a believer like we are today, since the Death, Burial, and Resurrection that provides the means for our salvation today had not happened and was not revealed before Paul. The Disciples did not even understand that Jesus was to be crucified and rise again, Luke 9:45, Luke 18:31-34, Luke 24:6-11, John 2:18-22,John 20:8-9, Matt 16:21-23 is a pretty good example that the disciples did not understand salvation the way we do today, because it wasn’t revealed to them yet, Paul brings it in 1 Corinthians 15:3-4. 
     

    The object of the OT believers faith is what I am getting at. They didn’t understand the cross, they could not have been saved in the same way we are today. 
     

     

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