Bouncing Bill

53 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Although I believe that such programs have administrative problems (bureaucratic inefficiency, fraud, etc.), I do NOT stand directly against such programs.  When I was a child, my family was a recipient of WIC.  As an adult, I have purposefully refused to take the benefits of such programs (even though my yearly income would have made us eligible).  I believe that it is my responsibility first and foremost to support my family through diligent work and careful financial management.  Furthermore, I believe that if my family can live comfortably thereby, then it is simply wrong for me to take "welfare" help from the government.  Indeed, I believe that governmental "welfare" help is supposed to be for those who CANNOT, not for those who WILL NOT.

I agree. 

3 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

And in relation to the idea of "pooling" our material wealth through a government program of charity, I have previously stated the following:

Yet this is NOT the character of governmental liberalism, even as I have previously presented:

Even worse, as I have also indicated previously, the present movement of governmental liberalism in our country is very much anti-God and anti-Biblical morality.  Indeed, throughout the historical record we find that governmental liberalism in its various forms is quite usually anti-God and anti-Biblical morality.  Such is NOT a governmental movement that is worthy of support from the godly.

Are there any social government programs in force at the moment you support, such as food stamps, WIC?

6 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Now I have to wonder if you have even been paying attention throughout our discussion in this thread, for I have ALREADY defined Biblical liberality in my previous postings.

In my first posting within this thread discussion, I included the following:

In my second posting within this thread discussion, I included the following:

In my third posting within this thread discussion, I included the following:

 

Thanks for the reply. I agree and I believe part of that liberality is being willing to pool our money, through tithes to the church and taxes to the government to support programs that help the those who are ill, hungry, ill clothed, in prison, etc.

I would rather my tax dollars go to help people than to kill them. 

1 hour ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

You might want to read again, for I never used the phrase "Biblical liberalism."  Rather, I purposefully used the phrase "Biblical liberality." 

The "ism" at the end of "liberalism" indicates that it is a system and movement of set beliefs.  Whereas the word "liberality" simply indicates a particular activity of generous giving.

 

ok, what is Biblical liberality?

1 hour ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

There is probably not very much among the values of governmental liberalism that I would support.  However, probably if someone provided an exhaustive list of their values, I might find a small number with which I could agree.  (Note: I am not talking about the values that they promote only with their "words," but about the values that they actually drive with their agenda.)

There is probably even less among the values of doctrinal liberalism that I would support.  However again, probably if someone provided an exhaustive list of their values, I might find a small number with which I could agree.  (Note: Since I would stand against the majority of the values among both governmental liberalism and doctrinal liberalism, I would not support or join with either of them as whole movements.  Rather, I would stand in public opposition against those movements.)

I would stand in total agreement with the values of Biblically defined liberality, although I may not always walk in perfect obedience to those values.  (Note: I am talking about that which is truly defined from Biblical truth, not that which claims to be Biblical truth, but is actually the distortion of Biblical teaching.)

In the fourth case above, since I did not list it, I am not presently aware of it or considering it.  If you have something that might fit in this question, then you would need to specify it in order that I might place my consideration upon it.

 

What is your definition of Biblical liberalism?

51 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Are you asking what values of governmental liberalism would I support?

Or are you asking what values of doctrinal liberalism would I support?

Or are you asking what values of Biblical liberality would I support?

Or are you asking what values of something "liberal" that I have not listed would I support?

All of the above. 

13 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

I was saying that I do not acknowledge or accept your "authority" to reprove Brother 1Timothy115 in the following manner:

Brother 1Timothy115 did not change the subject since his statement was within the scope of this thread's original question.  Brother 1Timothy115 did not change the subject since his statement was within the scope of your own original posting in this thread discussion.  Brother 1Timothy115 did not change the subject since his statement served as a direct response toward your own statement about "divorcing God" from the lives of those in governmental roles.  Thus I do not acknowledge or accept your "authority" to instruct him not to "go down blind, illogical rabbit tracks."

________________________________________

By the way --

I myself would indeed support Biblical values in governmental liberalism IF they actually existed in governmental liberalism.  However, as a whole governmental system, governmental liberalism is anti-God and anti-Biblical morality.  Indeed, taking up the scope of this thread's original question -- I most certainly would not and will not vote for the movement of governmental liberalism in this country.  When I vote, I begin with the principles of Biblical morality in order to discern the direction of my voting options.  The movement of governmental liberalism in this country does NOT find a place therein.

What 'liberal' values would you support? 

12 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Hmmm. I believe that Brother 1Timothy115's comment is indeed within the scope of this thread discussion's original question as posted by Brother Morales -- "I believed, that all christians that do vote, we're all voting conservative. For there is no more in the middle, when it comes to voting. My question is, do christians really know what it is to be a liberal voter, and what it stands for, or supports?"

Furthermore, I believe that Brother 1Timothy115's comment is indeed within the scope of your (Bouncing Bill's) OWN first posting in this thread discussion, as per the following: 

Bouncing Bill, your own original posting in this thread discussion included, not only the matter of Biblical liberality and charitable giving, but also the matter of ungodly racism in government.  If you yourself can deliver such broad political comments in the discussion, then I see no reason why others should be restricted from doing so also.  As for myself, I will not acknowledge or accept your "authority" to deliver such restrictions.

As a traditional Baptist I do not accept anyone having any authority to stand between me and God. I am not sure I understand what you are trying to say in your last sentence. Please enlighten me. Thanks. 

17 hours ago, 1Timothy115 said:

No ones divorcing God we're divorcing a group of socialist-Marxist God hating politicians.

You are changing the subject. How can a Christian who says they believe in Christ's teachings on how we should treat people not support those same values in government?

Please don't go down blind, illogical rabbit tracks. Thanks. 

7 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Actually, Biblical Liberality, as I have presented above, is the position that EMPHASIZES PERSONAL responsibility, because it emphasizes my own responsibility to take out of my own pocket in order to give from my own heart of my own material possession unto another in need.  Indeed, the Biblical command of Biblical Liberality is so PERSONAL that if I do not personally give of my own personal possession to help those in need, I personally commit a sin in the sight of the Lord my God, and will personally be held accountable by Him.  Governmental liberalism, however, removes personal responsibility by forcibly removing an individual's material possession through taxes (so that the individual does not need to have any personal heart of compassion whatsoever at all), and by governmentally redistributing that material possession unto those whom the government deemed "worthy" (so that the individual does not have personal say in those to whom it is given, or any personal connection with those to whom it is given).

In fact, in every passage or context that you have presented, the PERSONAL aspect of giving is precisely what is emphasized; whereas the governmental and its authority is completely absent.

Matthew 19:21 -- "Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell [personally] that thou hast, and give [personally] to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me." (Note: There is NO reference whatsoever at all unto governmental authority or programs in this command.)

Proverbs 22:16 -- "He [personally] that oppresseth the poor to increase his riches, and he [personally] that giveth to the rich, shall surely come to want."  (Note: Again there is NO reference whatsoever at all unto governmental authority or programs in this warning.  On the other hand, if you feel that governmental authority or programs is implied within this warning, do you also feel that if the government takes your material wealth through taxes and gives it to the rich, that you yourself with then "come to want"?  You do realize that many liberal politicians in DC are rich, right?  Making a goodly bit more than my own $30,000 per year.)

Matthew 25:31-46 -- "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: and before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: and he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.  Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was an hungred, and ye [personally] gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye [personally] gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye [personally] took me in: naked, and ye [personally] clothed me: I was sick, and ye [personally] visited me: I was in prison, and ye [personally] came unto me.  Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?  When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?  Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?  And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye [personally] have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren [note that the specific recipients here are not just any poor and needy, but are specifically the Lord's own BRETHREN], ye have done it unto me.  Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.  Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?  Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.  And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."  (Note: Yet again there is NO reference whatsoever at all unto governmental authority or programs in this account.)

Thus I repeat:

 

There is nothing in the Bible saying that help through the government should not be done. To say the Bible does not say it is all right to do so is not a valid argument as it does not say it is not all right either.

To oppose helping others through our own efforts or through the efforts of the government are both un-Biblical IMHO. Of course Jesus was speaking about individuals as the last judgement is about the judgement of individuals. That can not logically be said that this negates government programs. 

If churches and individuals were doing what they should there would be no need for government programs. 

You do know, I am sure, that the world 'you' or 'ye' can be either singular or plural. Jesus was speaking to an entire group when he said 'ye' and that is plural. Jesus praised those who gave and condemned those who gave little or gave for the wrong reason.

Remember what Luke said, "Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; a man's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions." Luke 12-15

"For we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that. People who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is the root of all evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs." 1 Timothy 6:7-10

"Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; a man's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions." - Luke 12-15.

4 hours ago, Jordan Kurecki said:

You clearly don’t understand the role of government. If we followed your logic, should the government also preach the Gospel? After all individual believers are commanded to preach the Gospel.

Do you think the government should take peoples tax dollars and pay ministers to preach the Gospel? If you say no then your thinking process is contradictory. 

You don’t seem to understand that God has different commands and requirements for individuals and for different institutions such as the Church, the Home, and Civil Government. 

People make up governments and institutions. How can they divorce God from part of their life?

1 hour ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Governmental Liberalism - The government putting its hand in your pocket to forcibly take your wealth for distribution to those whom they deem the worthy "poor" (after pocketing some themselves).

Biblical Liberality - You putting your own hand in your pocket to willingly and lovingly take your wealth for distribution to those whom the Holy Spirit directs you as the "poor and needy" (not the lazy and immoral).

Our Lord Jesus Christ and God's Holy Word command Biblical Liberality, but do NOT support governmental liberalism.  Those who use the commands of Biblical Liberality as a defense for governmental liberalism demonstrate their Biblical and spiritual ignorance.

(By the way, I am pretty sure that Bouncing Bill is still not using the King James translation for his Bible quotations.)

That is the 'easy' out people always take forgetting that people make up the government. So, what Jesus told people to do is directly related to what government does. The is simply a way of attempting to avoid personal responsibility IMHO. And, are these not commands the church should follow?

Read the verses in King James or any other translation, they still support what people consider liberal or socialist in political philosophy.

KJV

Matthew 21:19 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

Proverbs 22:16 He that oppresseth the poor to increase his riches, and he that giveth to the rich, shall surely come to want.

Matthew 

³² And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

³³ And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

³⁴ Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

³⁵ For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

³⁶ Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

Read the others in KJ. They support the ideas. 

11 hours ago, Jordan Kurecki said:

I don't remember reading where Jesus taught any of the principles of socialism or those common to liberalism. 

I do remember the Bibles teaching about if a man does not work he should not eat?

and about how murdering children is wrong.

I also never see where Jesus calls for censorship of viewpoints one disagrees with.

nor do I see Jesus ever advocating forced redistribution of wealth by the government. 

Socialism is absolutely not what Jesus taught.

 

What did he tell the rich young ruler? Wasn't that wealth redistribution?

What are we told in Matthew about the final judgement? From Matthew:

I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you gave me of me, I was in prison and you visited me.

Now any politician who advocated the above would be called liberal and socialist. Yet that is  how we are to be judged at the final judgement. 

Here are just a few of the verses in the Bible that express what conservatives would call socialist ideas:

"If a man shuts his ears to the cry of the poor, he too will cry out and not be answered." -Proverbs 21:13

"Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves, for the rights of all who are destitute. Speak up and judge fairly; defend the rights of the poor and needy." -Proverbs 31:8-9

"No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money." -Matthew 6:24

"Then Jesus said to his disciples, 'I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.'" -Matthew 19:23-24

"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least among you, you did not do for me.'" -Matthew 25:41-45

"He who mocks the poor shows contempt for their Maker; whoever gloats over disaster will not go unpunished." -Proverbs 17:5

"He who oppresses the poor to increase his wealth and he who gives gifts to the rich--both come to poverty." -Proverbs 22:16

"Jesus answered, 'If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.'" -Matthew 19:21

"He who gives to the poor will lack nothing, but he who closes his eyes to them receives many curses." -Proverbs 28:27

"People who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs." -1 Timothy 6:9-10

"Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share. In this way they will lay up treasure for themselves as a firm foundation for the coming age, so that they may take hold of the life that is truly life." -1 Timothy 6:17-19

It is strange how people say they accept the teachings of Jesus, but when people want to implement his teachings they are called socialist or liberal. 

4 hours ago, SureWord said:

Yes, but in my opinion only if they have no idea what the Dems of today represent or they have no idea what the bible teaches outside of a few Sermon on the Mount verses. Many people, particularly older folks, still think the Democrat party is the party of FDR or John Kennedy. Those days are long gone.

The GOP certainly is not the party it was before Nixon. When Nixon instituted his Southern Polity they became the bigoted, racist party we see today. It is interesting how the parties switched after Johnson's civil rights bill passed. The old "solid South" which was Democratic became the new "solid South," but Republican. 

My guess is that many on the board are not old enough to remember before Nixon. 

Are actions speaking louder than tongues?

20 hours ago, Jim_Alaska said:

Bill, I am not sure what you are getting at in response to my post. My text was simply a personal observation regarding community people who probably were not members of that church. My quoted Scripture was my own agreement with Scripture concerning church services.

I was not pointing to "anti-social distancing" or any of that other stuff. My church observes social distancing and makes provision for it, it also provides masks for those who want them.

Personally, I only have a problem with government trying to close, or even demolish a church building because its members want to continue meeting during this Covid 19 mess, as Scripture directs.

The broad brush was suggesting that none of the concerned citizens would attend. I am not sure that is true.

On 7/14/2020 at 9:39 PM, Jim_Alaska said:

You can be sure that the "concerned community members" would not have attended under any circumstances.

Hebrews 10:25 (KJV) Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

That is a very broad brush you use in your comment. I do not think it holds. The church I attend is to have a social distancing picnic. It will be in the parking lot. Everyone is to bring their own food and distance themselves from others. Still, I have concerns, especially at my age and I will not go. I would happily be there if it were not for Covid-19.