LYDIA WESTERN

This is my first time on here. I’m an Australian IB Pastor’s daughter. There’s smoke everywhere over here, just by the way. My friends house burnt down the other day.
One of the churches that we have had an interface with have suddenly come out as Post-Trib. If anyone knows David Cloud, he was out here just recently and did a full series of meetings with them and then found out AFTERWARDS (from my pastor brother) that they’ve been “studying” the subject of prophecy all year, and hey presto! The church is in for the guillotein. I’ve got friends in that church, and now they’re telling me they’re post-trib. It’s a bit lonely here in Australia. Most of our churches are hundreds of km apart. Apparently the States sometimes has more than one IB church in a big town! I can’t believe it! They must have more friends too then to make up for any losses.
I was just wondering if anyone has any helpful thoughts on a post-trib view (or pre-trib view, depending how you look at it).
As far as I can see, we are not appointed to wrath (and that meaning the whole 7 year tribulation). God will keep us “from the hour of temptation” that will come upon the whole earth”. 
 
 

Was just thinking that maybe I should give some examples of doctrines that I view as "fundamental," more than the commonly listed five:
1.  The Second Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (and the 1,000 year reign thereafter).
2.  Biblical Creationism (as per seven literal days, by the power of God's Word).
3.  Believer's Baptism by immersion.
etc.
Certainly, others may not agree with me concerning the fundamental importance of these doctrines (and of those that fall within the "etc.").  However, I am not responsible to make separation decisions FOR them (although I may make separation decisions FROM them).  Rather, I am responsible before the Lord my God to make separation decision for myself and those whom I have been appointed to lead and to teach.

Brother DaChaser,
As I stated earlier in this thread discussion, I hold that Calvinistic/Reformed soteriology is false doctrine; however, I would agree that many who hold to that doctrine are indeed saved through faith in Christ alone, and are thus my brethren in Christ.  (Even so, I have called you "Brother" above.)
 
Having acknowledged the above, I would now ask the question -- WHO defines what is a "secondary issue" that is not worthy of separation?  For that matter, where do we get the idea that even "secondary issues" themselves are not worthy of separation?  I myself would contend that God Himself in His Own Word has taught us the doctrine of separation; therefore, we MUST glean the answers for these question from the Biblical doctrine on the matter.  Does God's Own Word teach us that we should ONLY separate over the "fundamentals of the faith," and that there are ONLY five of those?  Or is that a man-made paradigm?  I myself would contend that it is indeed a man-made paradigm.  Yes, I WOULD separate over "the fundamentals of the faith."  Yet I would contend that there are a few more than five "fundamentals of the faith."  Furthermore, I would contend that the Biblical doctrine of separation teaches separation over MORE than just the "fundamentals of the faith."

THE MISTY FLATS
Wilt thou stumble, O blinded man?
For shadowed mists about thy feet,
That wrap around thy head and sweep,
The darkness of thy mistful land.

The enemy robs thee of thy whelps,
Wrapped in tranquil ashen o'er thy sleep,
And never mourns thy sunless head nor sees,
Such vulpine robbers by thee knelt.

Nor heeds alarm from higher ground,
When from some clearer hill is seen,
The outline of an enemy,
That mocked thy denial and plundering,found.
How terrifying more thy misty paths!
When stumbling at some darkened tree,
Wist not it was thine enemy,
But crushed some frightening sense of harm.

And thou, O Christian, blissful ignorance,
Stumbles at each sinful fall,
Denies was stricken there at all,
But keeps thy spurious innocence.

Sin that once was viewed as such,
Now nestles in a cloke of grey,
And strikes thy blind, denying face,
That full denies its bruising touch.

Sins bitter cup that once abhorred,
And deadly foe that once was feared,
Denied through misty conscience years,
But harms thy beauty as before.

Now all is pure? I thought it sinful!
This blindness, light? I thought it dark!
We float upon a helmless bark,
Some frightening trance of peaceful.

Behold the enemy! All around,
But seems to thee as darkened trees,
Behold a mire but placid seas,
And stumbling, as thy level ground.

Men are mad! I hold it true,
The lost and saved alike.
Content to wander in their night,
And veil the Holy that once they knew.

Wilt thou dare, O blinded man,
To lift thy cloke of sin?
And view thy Holy God within,
Whom thou hast covered with thy hand?

A gentle Dove, within thee dwells,
And grieves such blindness to His hurt!
Such disregarding of the cursed!
That threatened thee with hell.

No more forgive thy blinded state,
That parades a shallow evenness,
And steals thy clear and holiness.
This peaceful trance of pervading grey.

I pray Thy Spirit, O God, to blow!
And breath away all blinding mist,
That hides the truer face of sin,
And unifies our Christian low.
 
For thou art pure and thou art holy.
We know not Thee for we are blind,
But stumble at each law Divine,
And disregard as common folly.

Thy purest estate, thy wretchedness,
Thy finest coverings are thy nakedness.
And pious workings are thy pride,
But know ye not that thou art blind?

Thy happiest estate is still thy misery!
Thy richest place is still thy poverty!
Thy misty flats, a devils mind.
O know ye not that thou art blind?

Heaven o'er gazes, wisely and vast.
And what of our contentment?
Our happy states of condescension,
To lower views, unholy paths.

The Spirit grieveth in our breasts.
So tragic are His Holy thoughts!
That we have counted Him for nought,
And shamed His holiness for less!
 
A darker view of Holy God,
More as to a man than He.
And foolish, we assume to be,
Accepted in our misty sod.

For lower views of purest God,
Bring lower views of what He grieves,
'Till wandering there in misty seas,
Our forms of He and sin forgot.

Blow, O Spirit of God upon our dim!
And breath away satanic mist,
That settles on our souls and kissed,
Like serpent venom across the wind.

So make our air as Thy pure air,
And sereph's blush of Thee our own,
Until one day thou take us home,
And blindless view Thee perfect there.

L.J.W

Lol Yes, I think I agree. Although, maybe Jeremiah was just saying that gold covered Christmas trees were not acceptable for the Christmas celebration. I wonder if they had turkey for Christmas dinner or maybe it was goat as a sort of middle eastern adaption to the Roman Catholic version of Christmas, or the American version of Christmas.

Lol Yes, I think I agree. Although, maybe Jeremiah was just saying that gold covered Christmas trees were not acceptable for the Christmas celebration. I wonder if they had turkey for Christmas dinner or maybe it was goat as a sort of middle eastern adaption to the Roman Catholic version of Christmas, or the American version of Christmas.

Do American’s love Australians too? I wish we had more churches like you do.
I’m a pastor’s daughter. Number eight in a line of nine children, A.C.E homeschooled, had to flee the state we lived in because child protection services were after us kids (ever heard of that? My sister put us in. Nice girl), I.B conservative Baptist, the whole bit. I love Andrew Murray, F.B Meyer, Francis Schaffer, my parents have been around for three hundred and ninety-five years (actually Dad’s in his seventies), been through every kind of church problem you can think of and met every kind of Christian nut imaginable (Pharisees included). Don’t you love those people that think even sugar’s sinful. 
Anyway, There are about 180 I.B churches in Australia. Most are in NSW, QLD and VIC. There are about 3 in Tasmania and 1 in Northern Territory. There are about 9 in South Australia (where I was born), 5 of which are in Adelaide city. My Dad started the first I.B church in South Australia about forty some years ago after coming back from bible college in Springfield Massouri (sorry can’t spell). He was actually raised church of Christ and had never heard of the I.Bs because there were hardly any in Australia back then. Actually there was one church called Calvary Baptist in S.A that had been going a year before he started his but he was almost the first anyway. Might aswell have been, there wasn’t anyone around. It was called Northside Baptist Church. Now my brother Simeon Western pastors the church. It wasn’t planned. There have been other pastors between Dad and him but that’s what ended up happening. We actually live in Bathurst, N.S.W now. 
The churches here are typically between 60-80 people. A hundred or more is considered big. Churches of 30-50 are very common also. Apart from the cities, churches are typically hundreds of KM apart. America has about 25 times the number of I.B churches as Australia. I believe you have around 9,200 or something like that. Australia has about 180 - 200 maybe that any one directory is aware of. Certainly not thousands anyway. It’s really lonely, actually. There are some hidden flowers growing in this desert. Good ones too. The sort of people that you look at and say, “Wow, why hasn’t anyone found you yet?” But Ill be honest and say that Americans are better looking than Australians I think (not that looks are everything. I’m just half asleep and thought I’d say it). Anyway, off topic.
So if anyone wants to be a missionary to Australia, you can come and you can meet my family too. We’re in Bathurst, N.S.W and have about fourty-fifty people in our country church. But we have a really nice home and we’re normal by the way. The sort of people that you could talk for hours with about church problems over a cup of tea? Great isn’t it. 
Anyway, I hope some Americans will love Australians and I’ll be sure to love you back if you ever come. 
God bless.
 
 

I’m sorry, but there’s no good news for the Christian during the tribulation. A multitude from all kindreds and tongues and nations are going to be beheaded. And just on the side? Try this.
Second seal - a great world war.
Third - begins the suffering of famine and inflation (the aftermath of war).
Fourth seal - war results in death, but in this case it totals one-fourth of the people and living creatures. By today’s population standards, that would amount to ONE AND A HALF BILLION PEOPLE. Whoops daysy.
Fifth - so many Christians slain that they can’t be numbered. 
Sixth - mighty earthquake, the like of which has never been experienced. It is so severe that people call on the rocks to fall on them.
Seventh - introduces the Seven Trumpet Judgments, ending the first quarter of the Tribulation period and preparing for an even worse period called the “day of His [God’s] wrath.”
First trumpet - one-THIRD of all trees and green grass being burned up by hail, fire, and blood cast upon the earth. 
Second trumpet - a great mountain of sulfur falling into the sea and destroying a THIRD-part of the sea and all living creatures in it and a third of the shipping vessels.
Third - causes a great star (or meteor) called Wormword (or “bitter”) to fall on the fountains of water and a THIRD of rivers to turn bitter, resulting in the deaths of millions.
Fourth - one-THIRD less sun, moonlight, and stars, extending the darkness of night.
Fifth trumpet - introduces hideous demon-like creatures such as scorpions and locusts out of the bottomless pit. Not able to kill men, they torture them so badly that they “will seek death and will not find it.”
Sixth trumpet - introduces two hundred million horsemen (demon spirit-like death angels), who kill one-THIRD of the people. This will occur between the fortieth and forty-second month of the first part of the Tribulation, which brings to 50 PERCENT the population that is destroyed by God before the midpoint of the Tribulation. These individuals have taken the mark of the Beast and are considered incorrigibles.
Since estimates of upwards of a quarter of those living at that time still be saved under the preaching of the 144,000 mentioned in Revelation 7:9, it is possible that 75 PERCENT  of the population 25 PERCENT by martyrdom) will have been destroyed during the first half of the Tribulation period.
So horrendous, so terrible that we can’t even imagine. And all in the space of three years. No wonder God said that unless he came again that there would be no flesh left on earth. Imagine at the end of all this saying....but this isn’t God’s wrath. It’s ALL God’s wrath. No WONDER the angel said. “These are they that have come out of [THE] great tribulation”. Greek Word definite article. 
A mark of false doctrine is when they take a few verses and then wrench everything else in to fit. The last trump referring to the last trumpet judgment, for example. Didn’t anyone think that Revelation hadn’t even been written yet when Paul wrote that? John hadn’t had the vision yet, so how could Paul be referring to it?
Revelation was A.D 96. 1 Corinthians was A.D 59. The revelation was to John for the first time. This was all completely new to John because he asked questions throughout. Thus “The Revelation”. Wouldn’t be a Revelation if he already knew about it all from Paul.

Thankyou Mr. Young and Allan.
The funny thing is they have kept the distinction between church and Israel.
That’s interesting about your friend deputising for Australia. There are about 180 I.B churches in Australia. Most are in NSW, QLD and VIC. There are about 3 in Tasmania and 1 in Northern Territory. There are about 9 in South Australia (where I was born), 5 of which are in Adelaide city. My Dad started the first I.B church in South Australia about forty some years ago after coming back from bible college in Springfield Massouri (sorry can’t spell). He was actually raised church of Christ and had never heard of the I.Bs because there were hardly any in Australia back then. Actually there was one church called Calvary Baptist in S.A that had been going a year before he started his but he was almost the first anyway. Might aswell have been, there wasn’t anyone around. It was called Northside Baptist Church. Now my brother Simeon Western pastors the church. It wasn’t planned. There have been other pastors between Dad and him but that’s what ended up happening. We actually live in Bathurst, N.S.W now. 
The churches here are typically between 60-80 people. A hundred or more is considered big. Churches of 30-50 are very common also. Apart from the cities, churches are typically hundreds of KM apart. America has about 25 times the number of I.B churches as Australia. I believe you have around 9,200 or something like that. Australia has about 180 - 200 maybe that any one directory is aware of. Certainly not thousands anyway. 
There is not the same “circulation of the saints” over here, so the people you keep are those you win. Church growth here is quite slow and it is not because the pastors are necessarily doing anything wrong. So your brother in the Lord needn’t feel discouraged if it is not a fast growth. I know American missionaries that have been pastoring a flock of about twenty to thirty for years. Others have more but most churches are under a hundred. 
When Dad came back from the States, he did what he was taught to do when doing soul winning. But he couldn’t understand why people would pray and then not be interested and not come back. It worked well in the States. He eventually worked out that the Australians don’t have the Biblical background that Americans do. Aussies are serious but there is a greater risk of “picking green fruit” over here. Also, getting them to come forward at an invitation often scared them off too. So he ended up getting them to just stand where they were f they had prayed and then sit back down. He focussed a bit more on getting them to come to church a bit and doing some home visits rather than pushing them all through too quickly. Unless they seemed really ready of course. That’s just something to watch out for. I’m very pleased with his desire to come, however. I hope we will get a chance to meet him sometime. It’s not too far fetched because like i said, there aren’t a lot of us.
anyway, sorry I’m off topic. Maybe I should repost this as “evangelism in Australia” lol
I’ll ask my questions in the post trib thing in a little bit. I have to run and teach piano for now.

This is my first time on here. I’m an Australian IB Pastor’s daughter. There’s smoke everywhere over here, just by the way. My friends house burnt down the other day.
One of the churches that we have had an interface with have suddenly come out as Post-Trib. If anyone knows David Cloud, he was out here just recently and did a full series of meetings with them and then found out AFTERWARDS (from my pastor brother) that they’ve been “studying” the subject of prophecy all year, and hey presto! The church is in for the guillotein. I’ve got friends in that church, and now they’re telling me they’re post-trib. It’s a bit lonely here in Australia. Most of our churches are hundreds of km apart. Apparently the States sometimes has more than one IB church in a big town! I can’t believe it! They must have more friends too then to make up for any losses.
I was just wondering if anyone has any helpful thoughts on a post-trib view (or pre-trib view, depending how you look at it).
As far as I can see, we are not appointed to wrath (and that meaning the whole 7 year tribulation). God will keep us “from the hour of temptation” that will come upon the whole earth”. 
 
 

Cherith
 
Thy camp is pitched by Cherith stream,
The hamlet of thy love, thy means,
And running low the crystal drains away,
Sinks into the burning sand, the hardened clay.
 
From its waning freshness thy spirit found its share,
And foolish fear has told thee thy Jesus doesn’t care.
That little shall drain till nothing left
But turbid leagues of hearts bereft.
 
Greater eyes have seen the stream has dried,
The fainting spirits died.
And comes the voice of One beholding,
Guiding words, His new unfoldings.
 
Get thee hence, my will is thy supply.
Let Cherith’s blessings die,
If once supplies thy soul hath cherished
Turned to dust and perished.
Let Jesus be thy guide.
 
He shall not mock nor disappoint thee.
Trust his promise for the need.
New morning joy, the night its fears assuage,
And wipes the burning tears away.
 
L.Western
 

Cherith
 
Thy camp is pitched by Cherith stream,
The hamlet of thy love, thy means,
And running low the crystal drains away,
Sinks into the burning sand, the hardened clay.
 
From its waning freshness thy spirit found its share,
And foolish fear has told thee thy Jesus doesn’t care.
That little shall drain till nothing left
But turbid leagues of hearts bereft.
 
Greater eyes have seen the stream has dried,
The fainting spirits died.
And comes the voice of One beholding,
Guiding words, His new unfoldings.
 
Get thee hence, my will is thy supply.
Let Cherith’s blessings die,
If once supplies thy soul hath cherished
Turned to dust and perished.
Let Jesus be thy guide.
 
He shall not mock nor disappoint thee.
Trust his promise for the need.
New morning joy, the night its fears assuage,
And wipes the burning tears away.
 
L.Western
 

When Jesus was raised from the dead his clothing remained so I believe when I am taken up my clothing gold teeth glasses will be laying in a big pile.