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BobbyH

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Posts posted by BobbyH

  1. 22 hours ago, DaveW said:

    You obviously are not interested in actually studying the passage, which is all I asked you to do.

    I have no way of providing the help you need.

    Wow! I guess I spoke out of turn. I did study the passage. I cannot make it fit your stand. I am not a "universalist" as you may assume. I just believe that all true churches that follow the Scriptures are part of the body of Christ of which He is Head of All.

  2. I am not saying or implying that there is a universal church. I am saying that all true local churches are part of One body, The body of Christ. Which one local church is the body?

    1 Cor 12:14 For the body is not one member, but many. 15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? 18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. 19 And if they were all one member, where were the body? 20 But now are they many members, yet but one body. 2 1 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. 22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: 23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. 24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked: 25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. 26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.

  3. 2 hours ago, DaveW said:

    If then the "body" is local and not universal, how does that affect the understanding of verse 12?

    There is only one body. We are united in spirit, not of this world. Instruction to the local churches are used to teach us all what kind of spirit we should have. If one is hurt we all are hurt. If one is in need we are all in need. It is a spiritual context. The apostles doctrines are applicable to us all.

  4. 2 hours ago, Jim_Alaska said:

    In my experience and study I have determined that at the time of someone's salvation they are indwelt of the Holy Spirit. I see no Scripture indicating any baptism of the Holy Spirit on an individual at the moment of salvation.

    Jim, I believe the very Scripture you used  before  confirms this Holy Spirit baptism.  "1 Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body"

     

  5. "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body",

    I would like to stay on this point for now. I read this as the initial baptism of The Holy Spirit (at the time of regeneration) into the body of Jesus Christ. I do not think Paul is here referring to water baptism which is still to come to show publicly our regeneration. Which I would then say after water baptism you can become part of a local church.

  6. If this is true, does it apply only to the church at Corinth? What about the general epistles which church are they directed to? I read this to mean the baptism by The Holy Spirit we all receive upon being born again. Water baptism by immersion is a separate act IMO. Jim, I appreciate your input. I just do not see baptism and church membership tied to each other. That again IMO is like saying I am not going to accept someone's salvation if they were not saved in a Baptist church. I quote again " Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved." I am saved, I was baptized by immersion in the name of The Father, Son and Holy Ghost, and therefore I believe I am part of His church. I am a member of Brookside Missionary Baptist Church by their choice and mine through mutual agreement.

  7. As a few of you may know, I am not what you guys call an "independent Baptist" however; I am in my 2nd year of Bible College online that is independent Baptist 100%. I had never heard of this doctrine until I studied Church History. My roots are Missionary Baptists. I have always thought of the church as both local, visible and "universal" but not in a Catholic concept (nor as a Protestant) concept. I just felt that all the truly born again believers were part of Jesus' Church. I was not baptized to become a member of a church, but to show publicly my attachment to Christ and to typify His death, burial and resurrection. I have read more on this topic in the last month that I care to admit. Pros and Cons. Every time I am almost persuaded I will read another scripture that brings me back to the beginning. A sermon I read last night ( don't remember who it was by) says this scripture below is the proof text for the model church start. I would like to go through it and get input to my interpretation.

    Acts 2:40-47 King James Version (KJV)

    40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

    41 Then they that gladly received his word (they became born again, saved) were baptized (no mention of this being for church membership as we know it today): and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. (called out assembly "church"- this was all the born again, saved at that time)

    42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

    43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.

    44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;

    45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. 

    46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,

    47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added (Jesus does the adding) to the church daily such as should be saved. (No mention of baptism here, baptism is not part of salvation. It is an ordinance given by Christ to show Who you are committed to. I do not find where the Bible says baptism is "for" church membership.)

     

  8. On 2/18/2019 at 1:44 AM, Guest MrZx said:

    What do these mean ? No one in my last question addressed these verses, but instead gave me a bunch of verses that you can't lose your salvation. 

    Exodus 32:33 King James Version (KJV)

    33 And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

    This is referring to the time in the wilderness when the people had sinned against God and Moses went to God to intercede for them  I believe this is God's Book of Life recording all people living. To be blotted out meant physical death. Moses asked God that if He blotted the people out of the Book, to also blot him out even though he had not sinned. Because of the plea made by Moses God showed mercy on the people but did not take the threat away. God wanted the people to know the ultimate price of sin. So I think this is a warning of physical death if they continued in sin. However; God will have mercy upon whom He will have mercy.

     

     

    Ezekiel 18:24 King James Version (KJV)

    24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

    I believe this text is referring to apostate people. They were never righteous in their hearts. They only have false righteousness and therefore there is nothing to mention. They are pretenders. "If" saved always saved!

  9.  

    DaveW "I don't get why this is such an issue for so many people.

    What we see in the Bible is that churches are started under the authority of other churches. This IS the Biblical pattern."

    I do not have a problem with authority. I know who has authority over me in the leadership of my flock. That authority comes from Jesus Christ through the empowerment of The Holy Spirit. My "pattern" is of course the Scriptures as revealed again by The Holy Spirit.

    Can we not see these same issues were creeping into churches since the beginning? The Apostles doctrine is what we should follow and that puts Jesus Christ as our foundation.

     

    1 Corinthians 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

    13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

    14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;

    15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.

    16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

     

    1 Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

  10. I think the thousands of disciples (church members) scattered at the time of persecution in Jerusalem, around the time of the stoning of Stephen. This lead to churches in several locations. 

    Acts 11:19 Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only.

    20 And some of them were men of Cyprus and Cyrene, which, when they were come to Antioch, spake unto the Grecians, preaching the LordJesus.

    21 And the hand of the Lord was with them: and a great number believed, and turned unto the Lord.

    As time goes on the only way for us to be linked to the church at Jerusalem is through the same foundation Jesus Christ through the empowerment of The Holy Spirit.

    I am not trying to be disagreeable, this is important to me. If I might ask How do you connect your church back to the first church?

  11. "Church" perpetuity I agree is guaranteed. There will always be true churches.

    I do not find the Scripture that affirm "church begets church". I believe that is why the first church was empowered by the Holy Spirit and that "seed" is what is planted to beget a true church. 

    Scriptural baptism is necessary to become part of His church, not as part of regeneration but to identify with The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

    I agree with the scriptures you gave to support the outline of a true church. I just believe that just as the "seed" that the Apostles were empowered with was The Holy Spirit.

    "If" a church is planted under the authority of The Holy Spirit is will be a true church.

    "I do not seek to be right in man's eyes, I just want to be right with God"

  12. Thank you Jim, I read your attached post. I appreciate your input. I am convinced about when "Jesus'" Church started. My sticking point is more to do with "church perpetuity" than the beginning. I believe the Apostles were empowered at Pentecost by The Holy Spirit to do the work of building the church on the foundation that Christ had laid. I believe churches started everywhere through disciples that were persecuted and scattered throughout the region. These churches were ordained of The Holy Spirit and IMHO legitimate. I have a hard time with the only legitimate churches being those that are connected to a church started by the Apostles. Again, IMHO it is The Holy Spirit that begets a church with Jesus Christ as the Foundation.

    I try my best to rightly divide the Word through study and prayer as God gives me wisdom. I just am led to think that if a born again, Spirit filled believer (man) was led to start a local church based on the foundation that Christ laid, that the Holy Spirit would be the authority. He would of course have to be baptized by someone with that same Holy Spirit authority.

    I submit this in love and not as criticism. I do not seek to be right in man's eyes, I just want to be right with God.

  13. "Jesus Christ began His Church in Jerusalem with the calling of the 12 and finished building it just prior to being crucified (with about 120 adult members). This one church was the ‘my church’ that He would build.  This Church begat other Churches just like itself (Antioch, Ephesus, Corinth, etc.)."

    Is this common doctrine among independent Baptist churches?  

  14. 2 hours ago, Salyan said:

    I don't see where 'proving your lineage', trail of blood-style, is anywhere in the Bible.  

    I don't either. I have just read that if your local church was not "birthed" from a "true" New Testament church it is not a legitimate Church of Jesus Christ. 

  15. I am a Pastor of a very small flock of believers in a very small town in Western NC (Old Fort, NC). The building we have chosen to assemble in is named Brookside Missionary Baptist Church. The building was a school in the mid 1800's. There has not been an accurate historical record kept over the years. We as a congregation are not pedigreed as connected to any church "plant". Through our history we have been like minded people who have come together to worship the Lord Jesus Christ the best way we can through His Word.

    My concern is that "Independent Baptist Churches" would not consider our congregation as part of The Church that Jesus built/is building because we can prove our lineage. So my thought is that there is not a local church (present day) that can absolutely track their relationship to The Church at Jerusalem 100%. I do know this. Our congregation stands on the foundation that Jesus Christ laid which is the gospel. You might contend that we are not part of "the church"/"the bride", but this I know we are part of "the Family of God".

    Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

     

     Romans 15: And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us, and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith. 10 Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11 But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.”

  16. On 2/13/2018 at 11:35 PM, Ukulelemike said:

    I agree: there was no "Christian" Sabbath

    I think Acts 14 demonstrates that Paul did much preaching in the synagogues on the sabbath. He certainly built churches on the sabbath. Maybe Saturday should be "soul-winning day".

  17. 14 hours ago, DaveW said:

     

    The order of events in vs 41 is: received the word, baptised, added unto them - this order states clearly that they were baptised before they were added (vs 47 identifies what they were added to, the church).

    There are two possible ways to look at this passage then - either:

    • "the church" mentioned is not the universal group of all believers, and then we can easily say that salvation and baptism are not part of the same process

    This is the simple issue in this passage - the order is exceptionally plain - received the word (saved) THEN baptised, THEN added unto them (the church).

    This is what the Bible says - there is no way around this matter. either it is a local church and salvation is totally separate to baptism and totally separate to being added to the church, or it is a universal church and baptism comes after receiving the word, BUT before being added

    The order of the events mentioned in Acts 2:41 is clear:

    Received (saved) -----------------------------> Baptised -------------------------------> Added (vs 47 to the church).

    If church is universal group of all believers, then baptism MUST happen before you are added to that group. This equals baptismal regeneration, or baptism as part of salvation.

    If church is local church. then salvation can still add to the group of all believers (unstated in this passage), but then the order remains as above, baptised, then added to the local church.. Salvation is separate to baptism, and baptism is separate to church membership - the timing of these things is not referenced in the passage ONLY THE ORDER.

     

    And vs 47 does not say that baptism doesn't come before church membership - that would contradict vs 41. Vs 47 simple omits that information because it is commentary, not instruction. That they were baptised is already referred to in vs 41.

     

    I have done nothing more than highlight the order of these events from the Bible passage, and show the logical conclusions involved.

    There would appear to be no further purpose to me taking part in this discussion as I will only be restating the same information.

    Well, I hate that you want to give up on this discussion. You have helped me to understand your interpretation. Here is what I have learned so far.

    1. "The Church" in Acts was a local church which included all those saved and baptized at the time.

    2. That it took Salvation and Baptism to be added to "The Church"  at that time.

    3. Without baptism you could not be added to "The Church" at that time. You can be saved and not be part of "The Church".

    If you respond, good, if not I appreciate your time.

  18. 2 hours ago, DaveW said:

    Well then, according to the plain order of events laid out in Acts 2:41, you MUST believe that baptism is part of salvation, because the order is: recieved the word, THEN baptized, THEN added unto them (the church).

    If the church is that universal group of all believers then according to Acts 2:41 baptism completes your salvation.

    If however the church is local, the order does not add baptism to salvation, but they three separate events, occurring in a specific order: salvation, baptism, added to a local church.

    Scripture is absolutely clear on this point of the order of events.

    Universal church nessecitates baptismal regeneration, local church shows them as separate events.

    I do NOT believe baptism is part of salvation, baptism is an ordinance and should not precede "church" membership. Acts 2:47 confirms that:

    "Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved." Acts 2:47 KJV

  19. 4 hours ago, Jim_Alaska said:

    Bro. H 

    My use of the  word "church" (singular) is never meant to be understood as more than one church., but rather it is to be understood as either a single church or the church as an institution.  A worldly example might go like this: "The car is a wonderful invention."  Everyone would understand that I do not mean any one car, but rather the invention of the mechanical thing we call a car.

     

     

    "Institution" is a curious word. I am going to have to chew on that for a while!  

  20. 46 minutes ago, Jim_Alaska said:

    If this were accurate how would anyone obey this command of Jesus?  Mt 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

    According to your definition of "church", we would have to tell it to all the collective assemblies. Please note that even in your interpretation you use the plural "assembles" in place of the singular, "church".

    Jesus was talking about the local church at Jerusalem which was "The Church" at that time. His teachings are applicable to all "local churches" and to "His Church" as scripture. Is what Paul wrote to The Church at Rome not applicable to The Church at Ephesus? These churches did not exist at the Matthew 18:17 time frame, but if you are a follower of Christ it is unto you scripture. I do believe in local churches but just how autonomous are they? There is One Christ. I have noticed that you also use local "church" for several churches.

     

  21. 13 hours ago, DaveW said:

    "Salvation adds to His Church"

     

    Act 2:41
    (41)  Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
    and:

    Act 2:47
    (47)  Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
    verse 47 clarifies exactly what they were added to - I think there is little debate about that point - added to the church.

    However, in considering this passage, what is the order of events here?

    Is it not "received his word" (saved), then "baptised", then "added unto them" (the church: see vs 47)?

     

     

    I appreciate your thorough explanation. My prayerful conviction is that baptism does not add you to the Lord's Church. Salvation does. I do believe baptism is an ordinance as well as communion. I believe it is necessary as part of the great commission. I was baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost after I was saved not to join a local church, but to be obedient to Christ. I want to tell you I had never even heard of this doctrine until recently. I have been Baptist my entire Christian life. I am not Protestant and I am not catholic, but I do believe that Jesus's Church is the collective total of His called out assemblies of true local churches. Prayer Requested.

     

  22. The Church is built by Jesus Christ on the foundation that He is "The Christ" The apostles built local churches with Him as the Chief Cornerstone. All these are still His Church.

     

    Are there tares in His Church? Yes. However, He tells us to let Him sort that out!                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            

    "Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved." Acts 2:47

    "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." Matthew 18:20

  23. 2 hours ago, OFIB Preacher said:

    Speaking of adding, if I may do so, I'd like to add a link to a message I brought along those lines a while back from Colossians 1, if you please.  I don't have it all figured out at all, but I believe this will further explain things and be a help/blessing.

    I just listened to your fine message. Thank the Lord for you and what you do. I think some are confused on my stand and maybe I am not expressing it well enough. I believe in the "Local Church" and that we have a mighty work to do. In your message you mentioned someone that is truly born again should join with a local church for teaching and growth and I agree to that. If they do not do that right away I believe they are still part of the body of Christ and a member of His "collective" church. Were the churches of the New Testament not all part of this collective Church that began with Jesus and the apostles? I think of Paul's epistle to the Thessalonians about the rapture and I can't help but believe that his instruction was to all born again believers collectively. The New Testament speaks to us all. You pray for me and I'll do the same for you.

    Brookside Missionary Baptist Church Old Fort NC

  24. 1 hour ago, Baptist_Bible_Believer said:

    The first question would be, what constitutes the church. At the least, it must consist of Blood-bought, born-again believers. When were people born again according to the Gospel as presented in I Corinthians 15:2-4? If we take the Scripture as presented, no one is born again until after the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

    Jesus speaks future tense concerning His church: "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" (Matthew 16:18 KJV).

    If the church only consists of born-again believers, and no one was born again until later, the Matthew 18:17 must also be of a future fulfillment. Further, my view is that the church was established officially on the day of Pentecost when the Spirit of God descended and endowed those meeting in the upper room. Shortly after that others were added to the church.

    At the same time, Jesus was transitioning from the Old covenant to the New and certain aspects of the coming church were being established such as the officers that DaveW mentions.

    Surely the 120 in the upper room were blood bought born again believers and I agree they were the first "official" members of Christ's Church. I believe that those added after Peter's message were added at the time of their being blood bought, born again believers. Salvation adds to His Church. Baptism is a public demonstration (confession) of that salvation. I still love my local church here at Brookside Missionary Baptist Church - Old Fort, NC .

  25. 2 hours ago, DaveW said:

    Well, Jesus is talking to the disciples at that time - the obvious conclusion is that they are the church he was talking to.

    They were baptized believers, they were organized as displayed by the fact that they had a Pastor and a treasurer, and they were gathered to do the will of God - what else do they need to be a church?

    I will agree with the believers part and at that time they were all the believers that existed. I recognize the Pastor as Jesus Christ..wasn't Judas the keeper of the purse at the time (treasurer)? IMHO I just believe that salvation adds to the Christ's Church (which this was). He is my Shepard (Pastor). I am an under-shepard  of His flock at Old Fort NC. Thanks for the reply and Pray for me.

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