TheSword1227

Peter wrote to Jewish believers that were scattered abroad. Like the Jews today, did not they believe that the Tribulation was just around the pike? The coming 7 years of wrath and vexation that the OT prophesied? Wasn't Peter (and James) preparing these Jews for the suffering and the persecution that was coming?

On 6/3/2017 at 7:42 PM, InSeasonOut said:

I started this topic in response to one of the same topic, of when the church began. It had a lot of replies and instead of reading them all and replying with a large response or multiple comments I decided to use my time to write a study on this subject as im still new here and would like to gain more fellowship. That said, pardon me if these things im bringing up have been covered / answered. Still its good to revisit the doctrines of the Bible and understand where each of us believers are coming from and exhort one another, or correct error in meekness. ( James 3:13 ).

First, I've held the view for a while that the church began at Pentecost, when the disciples were filled with the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:4. - But there is also an interesting verse in John 20:22 where Jesus "...breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:" - This is not the baptism of the Holy Ghost. That happened at Acts 2. Note Acts 1:4-5 "And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. 5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. " And 1 Corinth 12:13 "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. " These scriptures and more show that the baptism of the Holy Ghost (the Spirit) is not with water.

John 3:5-8 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth,and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

No one is born again without the Spirit; the baptism of the Holy Ghost. The disciples were not born again until Acts 2. - The disciples were saved but not born again. There were Old Testament saints that had the Spirit, but they were not sealed, no eternal security, not saved by faith alone or by looking forward to the cross or the gospel (which Paul preached). Why? Because the Jews were under the law. (Galatians 3:21-25) Romans 8:9 "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."

Now, that's why I believed the church began at Pentecost. They didn't belong to Christ until they had the Spirit of Christ. Now that settles it - the church began at Pentecost - Right?

Wrong. The body of Christ began at Pentecost. - I already showed the answer above when I quoted 1 Corinth 12:13 "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body..."

But the church is the body of Christ, and the body of Christ is the church. Correct. But the church started before Pentecost (stay tuned) but the church became the body of Christ at Pentecost when they were baptized with the Spirit into Christ as members of his body.  (Hopefully I've at least ruled out the hyper-dispensation teaching by now that it began with Paul)

1 Corinthians 12:27-28 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

Now this is where I mention that I believe in "progressive revelation", and now see 27-28 to be another example of it. - As I said the church was before Pentecost (but not as the body Christ) But these verses ; 27-28 cannot be "superimposed" backward into when Jesus first called the 12 disciples / apostles. Meaning God set forth first the apostles in the church at Pentecost. (the church became the body of Christ at Pentecost when they were sealed with the Spirit).

Still it must be said that the Lord Jesus Christ has preeminence as he the foundation and precious corner stone (of the church). Isaiah 28:16 . And Hebrews 3:1 says " Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; ".

For sake of time and space ill quickly reference 1 Corinthians 3:11 ; Colossians 1:18 ; Colossians 2:19 ; 1 Peter 2:16 ; (I came across Job 38:4-7 in my study here but im not sure what to do with it on this topic, if anything... moving on)

Ephesians 1:4-5 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Sorry Calvinists, you were not personally chosen before you were born to be predestined to heaven. God is no respecter of persons. What God "chose" was His Son to be the way of salvation, before the foundation of the world, so man can enter heaven.

Ephesians 1:22-23 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

I'll again repeat that I believe the body of Christ began at Pentecost, but when did the church begin?

Acts 7:37-39 " This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. 38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us: 39 To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt, "

Acts 7:44-45 Our fathers had the tabernacle of witness in the wilderness, as he had appointed, speaking unto Moses, that he should make it according to the fashion that he had seen. 45 Which also our fathers that came after brought in with Jesus into the possession of the Gentiles, whom God drave out before the face of our fathers, unto the days of David;

Now this is where many Bible believers will separate the men from the boys. Hopefully no one here would ever change the text of the Bible (God's word ; KJV). Many "scholars" change the word "church" in the wilderness and remove the name Jesus from verse 45. (Please don't waste my time if you think this is a mistranslation)

To be honest I never personally studied Acts 7:38 "church in the wilderness". I've read it many times, but never spent time on, and even after all this, I need more time on it as this is really just a "rough draft". Basically 7:37 is a prophecy fulfilled in Jesus. 7:38 "This is he (Jesus).." The church in the wilderness is clearly Israel. The church in the wilderness is not the body of Christ. There is to be a distinction made here between the two, until Pentecost. (Church becomes body of Christ when baptized with the Spirit).

7:39 mentions Egypt, - the church in the wilderness (Israel) was an "assembly" that was "called out of Egypt". - Progressive revelation shows that now we as Christians (in Christ ; the body of Christ) are the church, an "assembly" that is "called out of the world". (Egypt being a type of the world).

I think my error of thinking the church started at Pentecost was because I was making "the church" and "the body of Christ" the same thing... and they are... now. The church started in the wilderness with Israel - The Body of Christ started at Pentecost with the apostles (Israelites).

Acts 7:45 Correctly says "Jesus". - All modern versions change this to "Joshua". Which Joshua, is a 'type' of Jesus Christ (second advent). The names are similar, as Joshua came from the Old Testament Hebrew > to English. And the name Jesus came from the New Testament Greek > to English. Same with Hebrews 4:8 - This is not a mistranslation it is advanced revelation. Joshua is a type of the Lord Jesus. Same with Hebrew 2:12 which i'll quote

For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

The church here is the church in the wilderness. They sang the song of Moses (Exodus 15:1 ff) And Israel will sing it again in the time of Jacobs trouble (7 years of tribulation).

Jesus is the captain of their salvation. Joshua worshipped Jesus as the captain of the LORD's host in Joshua 5:13-15 (This is he, that was in the church of the wilderness - 7:38)

Hebrews 2:12 is a quote from Psalm 22:22 except the church is called a "congregation".

I think Acts 7:38 could be used to show how the church didn't replace Israel, because it began with Israel. These are not 2 different churches. Jesus did not go to the Gentiles, he only went to Israel. The disciples were all Jewish Hebrew Israelites, they were the church during the ministry of Jesus on earth. (not yet the body).

Matthew 16:18-19a And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven.

Peter was given the keys to the kingdom of heaven (reference to the millennial kingdom). Not the keys of the church. (Paul revealed the mystery of the body of Christ).

It's been well noted that "I will build..." is future tense. And I agree... its so future tense that this refers to Israel in "the tribulation". (I will admit that I heard this taught but didn't agree with it, I didn't understand it until today.)

Does the church go through the tribulation? Yeah the church in the wilderness, AKA Israel. - The body of Christ (Christians, in Christ) do not.

Some pre-tribbers (im one) have taught the church is not mentioned after Revelation 3 , its not , the rapture is in 4:1 and that is proof the church does not go thru Daniels 70th week / or "the tribulation" (TOJT). ... I can't say that anymore. I actually believe the 7 churches of Rev, 2-3 are 7 literal churches in "the tribulation". (Each having an angel over them).

I do believe the book of Hebrews is written to literal Hebrews for the 7 years of tribulation. It mentions the church in 2:12 ; and 12:23

And James when he writes he clearly says in 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

Obviously the 12 tribes of Israel (Rev. 7).  Yet James speaks of the church in 5:14 , Therefore many post tribbers say Christians go thru "the trib"

Many Hyperdispensationalists say Hebrews all thru Revelation is only for the trib, but this is extreme division. There is much instruction and learning to know in Hebrews but it must be rightly divided and understood that passages like Hebrews 6:4-6 is not for the body of Christ.

Basically what im saying with that is, Christians are raptured ; the body of Christ , the church. But by definition the church is still being built as many will be saved in the 7 year tribulation but these saints do not become part of the body of Christ.

In closing, the church started with Israel in the wilderness, - church as in congregation or assembly, called out of Egypt. Israel is God's chosen nation/people. The Messiah Jesus went to Israel and called twelve disciples/apostles for his church. The nation rejected and crucified their Messiah (bringing in the New Testament according to Hebrews 9:15-17) The church (Israel) became the body of Christ when baptized with the Spirit (at Pentecost). Peter and others preached to Jews and after they martyred Stephen, God saved Paul to preach and be the apostle of the Gentiles.

Jesus said in John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Jews and Gentiles in one body.

Ephesians 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; (Jew and Gentile)

2:15-16 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

There was no body of Christ until Jesus was crucified. Only calvary made it possible for there to be "one body"... and no one was in the one body until Pentecost.

Ephesians 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

The church was placed into or converted into the body of Christ. (Ephesians 1:22-23)

Thanks for reading. I know its long and I was kind of everywhere... im sure it could be organized better and "fine tuned". I just wrote all this today and am new to this position and this is where I ended up... so i'd like to hear your thoughts. God bless.

-Jake.

Jake, what's the difference between being saved and born again?

On 6/5/2017 at 8:24 PM, Alan said:

The Beginning of the Church

"Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow-citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone." Ephesians 2:19 & 20 The foundation, the chief corner stone of the church, is the Lord Jesus. The Lord Jesus founded His church during His earthly ministry. The Lord Jesus started, while He was on the earth, the church. “And I say also unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” Matthew 16:18

The Lord is the foundation, the corner stone of the church and the prophets and the apostles are stones set above the foundation. The foundation of the church was set at the ministry of the Lord Jesus and the apostles and prophets continued the building of the church.

Concerning the 'head' of the church, Paul the Apostle was given this doctrine, “And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all thins to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all things.” Ephesians 1:22 & 23 The Lord Jesus is the 'head' of the church.

The Prophet and Messenger of the Messiah

John the Baptist is a messenger from God. Those who reject his message, and his baptism, are not following the messenger of God. “And what went ye out for to see? A prophet? Yea, I say unto you, and much more than a prophet. This is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.” Luke 7:26 & 27

The individuals in the 'Christian' realm who reject the message, and the mode of baptism, is rejecting the words of the messenger and prophet of God to the church.

The Apostle Paul stated, "And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gift of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?" 1 Corinthians 12:28 & 29

The baptism of John the Baptist, as a messenger and prophet from God, is the baptism for all those who trust in the Lord Jesus and is the only mode of baptism acceptable in the New Testament. The term, 'Baptist,' is a title; it is not the last name of John.

Concerning those who reject the baptism of John

If a person rejects the baptism of John the Baptist, or his followers, than that person is not not scripturally baptized, and, according to the scriptures, he is like the Pharisees and hypocrites. “And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John. But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.” Luke 7:29 and 30

The different denominations in the 'Christian' realm, sprinkling, pouring, infant baptism, baptism for the dead (Mormons), who reject the immersion method of John the Baptist are in serious error.

The Apostles were baptized by John the Baptist

All of the apostles of the Lord Jesus were baptized by John the Baptist. Whether or not the term, or title, 'Baptist' is after their name, is immaterial an adding of the requirements of a belief in the scriptures, a 'straw man,' and a non-issue. “Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.” Acts 1:22 God only has to give the man of God the term, or office, or calling, or title, 'once,' to make that term, title, office, doctrine, mode of service, scriptural and binding to the saints.

The Giving of the Holy Spirit

The Lord Jesus is the giver of the Holy Spirit to those who are saved. The apostles, as part of the foundation of the church, are the examples of the church. “Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whoe soever sins ye retain, they are retained.” John 20:21-23

The apostles, as part of the foundation of the church, are an example on how the Lord Jesus is guiding the saints in the New Testament church. For example. As the Lord Jesus sent the apostles around the world as a witness; so is every saint, every church, to be a witness. Matthew 29:1-20 As the Lord Jesus gave the Holy Spirit to the Apostles; so He gives every one who trusts in Him the Holy Spirit at the moment of conversion. Ephesians 4:30 There is is no 'tarrying,' or 'waiting,' for the Holy Spirit,' for any saint in the New Testament Church.

The Baptism at Pentecost

The filling of the Holy Spirit was given at Pentecost for empowerment to witness; not to start the church. The Lord Jesus said, “But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.” Acts 1:8

The Lord Jesus had previously, in John 20:21-23, given the apostles the Holy Ghost. Now, the Lord Jesus is stating for them to remain in Jerusalem to tarry for the 'power' of the Holy Ghost for witnesses, soul-winning, the gift of tongues, to preach the gospel to the ends of the earth. The Lord Jesus clearly states they were to receive 'power;' they were not to receive the Holy Spirit, but 'power.'

 

 

 

Hi Alan. Great post. I do have a question concerning the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Is this the same baptism that Pentecostals promote which they say speaking in tongues is one evidence of? If this is the very same baptism, then why don't other denominations follow suit? Why do many Protestants not promote the gifts of tongues, etc? Instead they seem to believe that one receives the Holy Spirit at salvation. Did these gifts cease?

I hope I'm not off topic.

15 hours ago, John Yurich said:

I was not Confirmed in the Catholic Church when I was a teenager because I chose not to be Confirmed as a teenager as I was too busy with homework to take the required lessons to be Confirmed in the Catholic Church. I waited until I was almost 24 years old to be Confirmed. And I had to take lessons for several weeks once a week after I came home from working half days. The lessons were given at the local Catholic parish in the previous town I resided in and were given by a nun since I was the only adult getting Confirmed. At that Baptist church I attend on Sunday mornings anybody who has accepted Jesus as their Savior and Lord is permitted to receive the Lord's Supper. The Pastor just states that if anybody knows they have some sin that they have not confessed to Jesus to do so before receiving the Lord's Supper.

As a born and raised catholic, I was confirmed too and had 1st Communion as well. All those classes, and to this day I can't remember what went on or was said in any of them. It's just more man made traditions which has nothing to do with God or our eternal salvation.

I spent 18 years in the Roman Catholic church. In all that time I was Bible illiterate. I never grew spiritually. I just went through the motions because that's what was expected. We were all like sheep with our "vain repetitions."

Then I met some Christians and was invited to a Bible study. That was an eye opener for me and I was changed forever. I never went back to the RCC.

No, you can't be Catholic and a Baptist, or a  Methodist, or Pentecostal, etc etc. You can't mix "works" with grace. You can't mix Truth with error. You have to have the right foundation. If one's foundation is faulty, most every thing else that comes out of it will be faulty too.

4 minutes ago, Salyan said:

If y'all would like to discuss Billy Graham, can you please take it to a new thread? I don't want this one to get off topic.

Sorry. I deleted the post.

22 minutes ago, BabeinChrist said:

Billy Graham is a false prophet, and a wolf in shepherds clothing and a Vatican puppet.

nt

On 5/31/2015 at 5:36 PM, OLD fashioned preacher said:

About 2 years ago I did a series on Free Masonry, followed by Islam, followed by Mormonism -- many, many parallels and similarities within them.

Oh, yes, the similarities. Joseph Smith, founder of Mormonism, borrowed heavily from Freemasonry, introducing it into his religion. The things they do in their temple mimics the Mason's initiation. Although Mormons will often deny this and say their temples are of God as revealed to Smith.

On 5/2/2017 at 7:41 PM, Invicta said:

JWs  don't beleive in Hell they say it should read Hades and that is just the grave, which, they say, is what the ancient Greeks believed. which of course the ancient Greeks did not believe. I had quite a long discussion on that with some a few years ago.

More recently, the week before last in fact, I had a knock on the door and there were two young women  who wanted to discuss the bible with me.  They did not offer any literature which was a first but one had the JW bible on a Samsung tablet.  I said I would get my bible and they said which bible was it? and I sad it was the King James.  I can't remember all the conversation as it was rather long, but I asked if they were saved. They said  "We can't be sure".  I answered that the bible says we can, and  the younger one with the tablet quoted John 3:16. I think she implied that you only have eternal life while you believed, but I said, If it is eternal or everlasting, It cannot be everlasting if you can lose it.  

At some time during the converstion, the postie delivered a bundle of Evangelical Times for our churh, and I asked them if they would accept a copy and they said no.  I  said you expect me to read your publications but you won't read mine. They said "WE are firm in our beliefs."  

 

The JW organization forbids its members from accepting non JW literature. Makes it difficult to witness to them one on one as they foist all their material on us

The late Walter Martin had a method that he claimed worked very well. When the JWs came to his door, he would insist on leading a prayer prior to any discussion. Before they even knew what was happening, in the prayer, he actually shared the gospel of Jesus Christ.

On 3/12/2017 at 9:28 PM, Disciple.Luke said:

I accept their literature, and throw it away later so their theological poison doesn't end up in the hands of a biblically illiterate Christian.

They are very nice people and I respect their zeal. They put much of the Christian world to shame when it comes to sharing their message, even though it false.

You mentioned the gang (Governing Body) in Brooklyn, but their headquarters is now in Walkill and Patterson, New York. They sold all their Brooklyn buildings for millions of dollars.

I like the fact that you toss out their literature. it's one of the ways Christians can help. I do this all the time as I see their literature everywhere.

Those in a "works" theology always have much zeal. What they lack is assurance of where they will end up when this life is over. I once spoke with an elderly gentleman who was a JW his whole life. I asked him if he had assurance of salvation. He said: "I can only hope I have done enough." Sad.

23 minutes ago, Invicta said:

He was in grave error in this.  The vast majority who went to the front were not saved.  BG himself recognised that and stopped calling them converts and just called them "enquirers.".

Christians throughout the dark ages avoided the RCC, partly because of the mass, but also of their heretical teaching of baptismal regeneration as well as other false teachings.  The Waldensians claimed their separation from Rome from the time when Sylvester was Bishop of Rome.  They were not known by that name at the time but were given many other names, but for about 1,100, or so years they kept their witness against all the errors of Rome while standing firm in face of many attrocities inflicted on them by Rome.  About 40-50 years before the refprmation, the accepted the mass, agreeing to attend once a year. They were no longer considered witnesses by Rome.

Rome has murdered millions of Christians throughout the ages, but says she doesn't persecute saints, only heretics and she has the perfect right to do that, and given the power she would do it again.  

If you attend mass you cannot be a witnessing Baptist. 

I agree. Good post.

5 hours ago, John Yurich said:

It is false that every Catholic doctrine is unscriptural. There are scriptural Catholic doctrines and scriptural parts of the Mass. The Catholic Church worships the biblical and historical Jesus as God. If a Catholic who is Born Again by reason of having given their life to Christ and they trust entirely in Jesus alone for salvation and they attend both the Catholic and Baptist Churches than they are saved and will enter Heaven when they pass away. Isn't it good enough that I attend a Baptist Church on Sunday mornings without ceasing attending the Catholic Church on Saturdays? It is not required for salvation for one who gave their life to Christ to entirely leave the Catholic Church and only attend a Baptist Church.

But what happens when one mixes falsehoods with truths? A little leaven leavens the whole lump. False teaching is like a little yeast that spreads to the whole batch.

13 minutes ago, Ukulelemike said:

Ultimately it went poorly, but that's because the Jews knew who he was and rejected him, but they had to lie about it to do so. P{aul actually ritually shaved his head to show himself purified, and even had TImothy do the same, so he (Paul), could go to the temple. Remember, he said, with the Jews he would be as a Jew so he might reach some of the Jews. So apparently there was some fruit.

The difference with the Mormons, is that Judaism IS true-just passed away, while Mormonism is false from its inception, like Catholicism or JWs and they should be removed from immediately upon conversion to true Christianity.

I agree. Good post.

5 hours ago, Salyan said:

I can understand the pull toward what is familiar, and the desire to remain in one's heritage. It is incredibly difficult to give up something that has been part of your life for so long. The problem is that you really cannot be both a Catholic and a Baptist. If I was a betting person, I would be willing to bet that neither your Catholic priest nor Baptist pastor would allow you to remain in good standing as a member in either congregation. If you told them you'd joined (or remained in) the other church, they'd be likely to remove your membership in theirs!

But we digress. The (much more important) issue here is whether a born again Christian should remain in the Catholic denomination. The RCC does retain some orthodox doctrines (one God, Jesus as God, etc.), and there are sincere individuals who identify as Catholic who truly believe Jesus is God and desire to serve Him. It takes more than just an acknowledgement that Jesus is God - more than a belief in a single God - to be a Believer, however - to be saved. James 2:19 tells us "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: he devils also believe, and tremble..."...but the devils are not believers in Christ. Neither are humans who, no matter how well-intentioned, have not come to God as He has directed - by faith alone, trusting in His grace alone in Christ's finished work on the cross.

The RCC organization denies Christ's finished work on the cross, teaching instead the false doctrine of the perpetual sacrifice of the mass. They lift Mary (Queen of Heaven - that's a false goddess in the Bible!) up as co-Mediatrix with Christ, in opposition to the Bible which states that "there is one man and one mediator between God & man... Christ Jesus." They repudiate the clear teaching of grace alone, through faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9), and add a works requirement to salvation (Romans 3:20).  In the Council of Trent, the defining doctrinal council of the RCC, which was reinforced by Vatican II, they have damned those who have trusted Christ alone in obedience to the Bible. Take a look at this list: https://carm.org/council-trent-canons-justification  That means that if you have trusted Christ alone, by grace through faith, for salvation, the RCC has condemned you. By their own teachings, you cannot be a Catholic and a born-again Christian.

The fact that the RCC gets some things right, in no way excuses the fact that they get the most important things wrong. How many sincere people that desired to know and serve God have been led to an eternity in hell because of the RCC teachings?  Such an organization is no place for a Bible-believer to be. This is not a matter of salvation. This is a matter of obedience to God's word. Think of the blasphemous teachings that are perpetrated through the Mass - can you truly bear to be present, and to be silent, knowing how many people are being led astray through this liturgy? Will not your presence encourage others to stay, or to come, and possibly lead to them being led astray as well?

 

John, if you will be patient with me a bit longer, something you said concerns me. You replied to HappyChristian that you knew you were growing in Christ because you attended Baptist services, fellowshipped with people, and were involved in the ministries. As we grow we will, yes, desire to serve God - desire to be at church to hear His Word - and desire to fellowship with other believers. And these things are good.  The activities themselves, however, are not growth - but merely the evidence of it.  Our growth is internal - a love for Christ, a love for His Word, a desire to spend time with Him in prayer & the Word, the desire to obey Him in personal obedience and ministry to others, the desire to share the truth with others, and an abhorrence for false doctrine. You've come from a background that emphasizes works. Some of us (myself included) also have a natural tendency to prioritize works over the internal fellowship with Christ. Please be careful not to allow works to define your relationship with Christ. It is by faith we come to Him, and by faith we grow.  All our own righteousnesses, done in our own strength, are as filthy rags to Him. That verse applies not only to salvation, but also to our service after salvation.

 

I truly hope that it does not seem to you that we are 'piling on' you here. That is not our intent. We are truly and greatly concerned for you, and desire to see you grow in Christ.

 

You have a point about a born again believer not remaining in the roman catholic church. However, many do just that. Will they lose their salvation? No, but they probably won't grow much spiritually.

Some people, like Catholics, Mormons, etc get saved but choose to remain in that church for the sake of witnessing to others. I believe that's what the apostle Paul did. He would visit synagogues for the purpose of winning over the Jews.

The interesting thing is, Billy Graham would tell folks who came up front to receive Christ as Savior,  to go back to their churches. Why? Who knows.

I wonder how well that worked for Paul trying to win over the Jews when they knew who he was: the apostle of the Gentiles. Did he really keep the law, or did he just go to synagogues because he wanted the opportunity to preach the Gospel to them? He taught so much against law keeping.

My wife, a former Mormon, stayed in the Mormon church for a while hoping to befriend some and then witness. It never did much good. They considered her an apostate  and she was eventually "blacklisted," which means our house was marked for the Missionaries to avoid whenever they were in town.

12 hours ago, No Nicolaitans said:

In short, many of them (I can't say all of them, because I don't know that)...many of them adopt many aspects of the Mosaic law as requirements for holy living; thereby, mixing grace with works.

I think that probably spurned from their desire to keep their Jewish heritage and identity in addition to accepting Christ. However, as man is prone to do...outward observances tend to overtake the inward.

I agree. I know a Jewish lady who is Roman Catholic. She refers to herself as a Messianic Jew and does not call herself a Christian because she fears losing her Jewish Identity which I think is understandable. Her attraction to Roman Catholicism seems to be based on the similarities between the 2 religions. Both having a priesthood down to the robes and ceremony.  The rituals and canon laws of the Catholic church such as abstaining from meat on certain days sounds very Jewish.

Is being a Hebrew Catholic an oxymoron, or not, since Roman Catholicism is also a works based religion?

2 minutes ago, No Nicolaitans said:

In short, many of them (I can't say all of them, because I don't know that)...many of them adopt many aspects of the Mosaic law as requirements for holy living; thereby, mixing grace with works.

I think that probably spurned from their desire to keep their Jewish heritage and identity in addition to accepting Christ. However, as man is prone to do...outward observances tend to overtake the inward.

But they are still saved, right? Or have they fallen from grace?

Why is Messianic Judaism considered a false Religion?

On 4/10/2010 at 1:34 PM, Brother Rick said:

I always try to run them over with my SUV when I see them on their little bikes.

Just kidding.

They are dedicated, and more Christians need to be out soul winning and knocking doors like the Mormons do. The only people who’ve knocked on my door are JWs, Mormons, and other people from my church who didn't know I lived there.

Aggressive New Testament soul wining is dead in modern day Christianity for the most part.

I haven't seen them on bikes in these parts in years. They drive church owned late model cars. The other day, I spotted them in a nice shiny truck.

I have had plenty of Mormon elders and sisters come to my door over the years. My wife is a former Mormon and loves these people dearly.

While it's true they can be wonderful people, my experience with some of them was not at all positive. It seems that today they have gotten more bold. Elders will sit with my wife for an hour when I am not at home, although their rules disallow this..I had 2 young sister missionaries tell me that my baptism didn't count because it wasn't done in their church. I felt disrespected in my own home.

I always make sure I share the Gospel with them, but they will often say that I only have some of the truth and they alone have all of it. It's frustrating and requires much patience and prayer.